D&D 5E Does this start PUN PUN?

[GMforPowergamers]

Okay, so I have been a way a while, but I was under the (maybe mistaken) impression that all of the major loop holes from 3e/3.5 where closed... but now I start seeing crazy things and I am left wondering if power builds are back.

(Breif history: Pun Pun was an all powerful kobold that had NI for all stats and powers, where NI stood for near infinite because you could make them as arbitrary high as you want by repeating a simple power game. this was orginally done with like a 15th level wizard or sorcerer, but as more books came out and more rules it got to the point where all you needed was 1 magic item and even a 1st level kobold caster could do it...)

Now I doubt we are there, but I just saw a broken (much slower) way to build a single character into a world conquering game breaking army. (prereq level 17 wizard)

So you start by preparing wish, then you cast simulacrum on yourself.

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now you rest and get back your simulacrum spell. (You can't cast it again or else your simulacrum goes away) but now you have it back and your Sim (sim 1) cast wish to duplicate simulacrum and targets you.

now notice that there can be any number of simulacrums of any target, as long as a different caster casts the spell... now that new sim (sim 2) has all of your spells including simulacrum... so he casts it and gets another (sim 3). Sim 3 then casts his simulacrum spell getting sim 4.

• Casting Time: 12 hours
• Range: Touch
• Components: V S M (Snow or ice in quantities sufficient to made a life-size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature’s body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell)
• Duration: Until dispelled
• Classes: Wizard

so no it took 12 hours to make sim 1, it took 8 hours to rest and regain simulacrum, then 1 action for sim 1 to wish for sim 2. It took sim 2 12 hours to make sim 3, and 12 hours to make sim 4... so 2 days (44 hours and 6 seconds to be exact) you now have 4 copies of you plus your own 17th level wizard self... 1 copy is down the 9th level slot, and the other 3 are down a 7th level slot... if you are in a wish each could use wish instead, but lets pretend you are not in a hurry... you have multiplied you power pretty heavily here. it has already cost 1,500 gp x4 too (not alot at that level but not pocket change, and the only thing stoping this from being NI,)

Now remember that each of these wizards ARE you, but each listens to the one behind it in line as well...

also if you wait 3 more levels (yes yest everything breaks at 20th level) each of those simulacrums have 2 7th level slots, as such you are not even down that 1 level of spell.


OKay sounds bad but really it isn't that broken... I mean it's not like one of you can just wish for powdered ruby... oh wait you can.

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You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn't a magic item. The object can be no more than 300 feet in any dimension, and it appears in an unoccupied space you can see on the ground.

every other day you can just wish another 2 days worth of components out of pure magic...

even going slow if given a 3 month "down time" you could create 1 sim a day... and on day 90 have 91 of you walking around, you at 100% and the other 90 at down 1 spell slot and at half hp...

 

[Ovinomancer]

Not quite. You could get a maximum of 3, and using Wish doesn't make a difference.

Let's say you cast Simulacrum day 1. You have a sim! This sim has no 7th level slot, but still knows the spell Simulacrum and has an 8th level slot and a 9th level slot. So, day 2, they can cast it on you again for a new Sim using the 8th or 9th level slot. The new sim doesn't have that slot, either. The final day consume that final slot. So you have 3 sims, one with no 7th or 8th level slots and two with no 7th, 8th, or 9th level slots. Chain stops, here.

You cannot sim a Sim, though, because a Sim is not a humanoid or beast.

EDIT:

Ah, I see the trick. You're waiting until you recover Sim and then simming yourself. Interesting. Have fun, I guess. The GM still has infinite dragons.

 

[Krachek]

It’s a trap you just enter in an infinite time loop of endless debate!

 

[Charlaquin]

If I’ve learned one thing from watching cartoons it’s that these kinds of schemes always end in all the copies fighting each other.

In fact, wasn’t that exactly what the Manshoon war was?

 

[Stalker0]

Ah yes the Simulacrum cheese. I would argue that by the book it is the most "broken" combo that has been presented to date, a high level wizard with wish could simply have as many copies of themselves as desired, for nigh infinite power.

I would agree that yes, this is as close to pun pun as any 5e rules combination has gotten so far. So of course, ban it with extreme prejudice I go with these two very simple houserules:

• A character cannot have more than one simulacrum at a time.
• Simulacrums cannot use the simulcrum spell.

Its still a hell of a good spell regardless, but now no longer infinite.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I could imagine that if you have too many copies of yourself, at one point they may get confused about which one is the original they're all supposed to obey.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I could imagine that if you have too many copies of yourself, at one point they may get confused about which one is the original they're all supposed to obey.

Nah, magic. What's fun is that people change, so, over time, you have a set of simulacrum's that's friendly to an older version of you, some in the transition, and a set that's friendly to the current version. Since they act on their own as normal if they aren't commanded, I can easily see this causing all kinds of hijinks for the purported wizard claiming world domination by simulacrum.

 

[Eltab]

If you find / read the "20th Level Wizard vs World" and "20th Level Sorcerer vs World" threads, you will know why this does not work out in 'reality' the way you think it should.

Spoiler

Too many CEOs, not enough employees.

 

[Oofta]

I limit it to one. I could give reasons but it really comes down to game balance and common sense.

 

[Dausuul]

Ah, I see the trick. You're waiting until you recover Sim and then simming yourself. Interesting. Have fun, I guess. The GM still has infinite dragons.

You don't have to wait to recover it, though you will get slightly better results if you do.

A) You cast simulacrum on yourself using a 7th-level slot. You get Copy #1 with no 7th-level slot.
B) Copy #1 uses its 9th-level slot to cast wish duplicating simulacrum; but it targets you, not itself. You still have all of your slots except the 7th-level one, and so the same is true of Copy #2.
C) Copy #1 orders Copy #2 to obey you directly, avoiding the need to send every order down an endless chain.
D) Copy #2 uses its 9th-level slot to generate Copy #3, etc.

You end up with an arbitrary number of copies, all missing their 7th-level slots (because they are copied from you, who are missing yours) and their 9th-level slots (because each casts wish to produce the next), but they still have everything else, and you only need to expend the material component once.

If you can spare an extra day, create Copy #1, recover your own 7th-level slot, then start the above process. Your copies will now have all slots except the 9th-level one.

Obviously, there are many ways to close this loophole, but the same was true of the original Pun-Pun; these are purely theoretical exploits for the fun of seeing how far the rules can be stretched. However, the clone chain requires you to be 17th level, where the Pun-Pun build worked at level 1.