D&D 5E Does Anyone Use Hold Monster?

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone. I was looking through spells when I noticed that Hold Monster is a 5th level spell and it only targets 1 creature (not undead). Hold Person is 2nd level and only targets 1 humanoid. I also noticed that the Mystic's functionally similar power is functionally 4th level (Psychic Grip), and it allows you to drag the target around as a reaction.

Does Hold Monster really see play in higher levels? I haven't had the opportunity to play that high yet; the furthest we've gotten is 7th level. I could see it being great against legendary monsters, except for their legendary resistance.

What do you think?

 

[jgsugden]

This is a spell that has been in the game for a very long time. Any spell that can take an opponent out of a combat if they fail their save is generally considered to be a worthwhile spell. This sees play.

 

[jaelis]

it's good vs soap

 

[Redthistle]

Hold Person is 2nd level and only targets 1 humanoid. I also noticed that the Mystic's functionally similar power is functionally 4th level (Psychic Grip), and it allows you to drag the target around as a reaction.

A thing to remember about Unearthed Arcana play-testing options is that they are frequently unbalanced in being somewhat more powerful than official options.

The game designers use the reviews and their own testing to adjust anything needed for balance. It tends to whittle down UA classes a bit more often than it buffs the later official versions up.

Your observation about the relative usefulness of hold person vs. psychic grip is an example of working to find balance. Psychic grip, costing 6 psi points, can only affect one target. Hold person, at 2nd level, is also limited, but at higher levels it can target additional humanoids.

Which option is more useful? Dragging one immobilized target around? Immobilizing a number of targets? It depends on the circumstances. Each of the options has its good points.

Psychic grip is not limited to humanoids, but there are other hold-type spells to cover that. Also, the Bigby spells give the caster some latitude in the direction of psychic grip.

What I like is that they are not carbon-copies; they are distinct enough to echo the difference between the spellcasting and psionic approaches to manipulating the immediate situation.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'd use it as sorcerer and heighten it. If the target fails its save, it pays dividends. Especially when you also have a hard hitting friend.

 

[CapnZapp]

At low level (and 7th level is still rather low) save or suck spells in 5th edition appear worthless, since every monster stands a good chance of making its save, regardless of what ability you target.

The true value in save or suck spells comes at higher levels.

The secret is that your save DC steadily increases, but the saving throw bonuses of monsters don't. (As long as you target weak abilities intelligently)

This means that one and the same spell, cast in the same slot as before, becomes MORE powerful as you level up.

---

At the same time, the cost of a given spell drops dramatically after you first get the chance to use it.

At 3rd level, casting Hold Person means using 50% of your best spells, and 1/6 of all spell slots.

At 13th level, casting Hold Person is MUCH cheaper. It's now only 1/17 of all spell slots (likely even less considering the chance of you looting wands and scrolls etc), and it's not even close to one of your best spells.

---

So.

The price goes down (dramatically for lowest levelled spells).

The power goes up (significantly, at top level you should look at a save DC close to 20, which is nearly impossible for most creatures to make, given a weak ability and no proficiency).

You see where this is headed...?



In conclusion: when you first gain Hold Person, it truly is as weak as you think it is.
*) or Monster

But don't give up on it. Five or fifteen levels later, you would do well in giving it a second look.

 

[Blue]

Save or suck spells in 5e are awesome because foes usually only have 2-3 decent saves so you can target bad ones. This becomes even more pronounced at higher levels because proficiency is higher, but it's still true at low levels.

But for all that, I don't see Hold Monster used often. Hypnotic Pattern and Banishment get a lot of play and have been available for a bit when you first would get Hold Monster. At lower levels Web and the other spells where it's an ability check to get out which takes an action see more play. But Hold Monster is just too few targets plus a recurring save - it's not worth the slot compared to other spells for general usage. If everyone can and will focus-fire it's got an advantage over all of them with crits, so against a single foe or more powerful boss with a poor WIS save like a giant I can see usage, and that's not too rare.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

So the target(s) is paralyzed. Even for one turn with a hard hitter around that's scary. When cast a higher level and high DC it can be a real killer against groups.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Just this week my group used Hold Monster on a Roc to make it fall out of the sky and take 20d6 damage. Then while it was still held the Paladin jumped into its mouth and caused the Daern's Instant Fortress to expand while in its throat. Ka-blooey.

We will see how much use it gets. I'm expecting at least one more good application of before the end of the campaign that's now wrapping up.

PCs are at level 9.

 

[Gadget]

In addition to CapnZapp's analysis above, the Hold* spells fell into a category, The Save or Die (or suck), that the designers were trying hard to ameliorate in 5e to reign in the Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard issue. Giving the target a save every round to end the effect was viewed as an effective way to reign in the power of the spell by giving the victim a way out. Unfortunately, this makes the spell less attractive to spell casters, who are afraid of not getting their "money's" worth out of the spell until higher levels against weak saves, IMHO.

Even assuming the spell is successfully used, it encourages everyone to immediately beat on the victim and eliminate them quickly due to the fact that they could potentially recover by making their save at any time. I'm not sure I like that. Maybe if, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, the target got an extra save with advantage each time they took damage? This would undoubtedly weaken already questionable spells (at least when first obtained), so maybe the regular save could be given disadvantage? This would encourage use to eliminate the target from the battle field for a time (along with non combat uses), while the caster and allies could concentrate on other foes. I'm not sure it would be an improvement, but it does appeal to my aesthetics a bit more.