Does a D&D monk automatically imply martial artist?

[Tuzenbach]

There was a point in time where I remember associating the medieval/fantasy "monk" with this......




(....or similar 1938 "Robin Hood" Friar Tuck stereotype.....)






Since D&D came out, however, my association has changed to this.......











In terms of verisimilitude, which is a more faithful representation of the monk? Perhaps a combination of the above? Perhaps neither of the above? Are there real world monks today who actually practice martial arts? Discuss!!!!

 

[gamerprinter]

Martial arts has been a focus for Buddhist monks as a means to aid in focus, discipline and meditation - as a primary means of achieving enlightenment (the ultimate goal of a Buddhist). Of course the word "monk" is a western word, none of the "monks" of Asia called themselves that. We call them monks, because like western monks, they set themselves a part from society. A monk by definition is a person who practices religious asceticism, living alone or with others like themselves away from civilization.

Looking at it from a D&D point of view, European monks are much more like priests, than Asian monks, which gives them access to divine spells - which makes European monks some derivative of Cleric. Asian monks while religious are generally not considered priests, thus not having access to divine spells (which arguably is not true, Buddhist monks did indeed perform rituals that could be imagined as casting divine spells).

While western monks may have training with weapons, especially if a given monastery is militant, this training is a form of self defense. Where as the eastern monk martial arts is a central part of their ascetic training, and while it could be used for self defense, the training was intended to help in achieving enlightenment - a core to their ascetic practices, which is not true of western monks. While these differences aren't perfectly clear in the real world, there is a distinction that kind of makes sense.

 

[Dandu]

There was a point in time where I remember associating the medieval/fantasy "monk" with this......


View attachment 69133
(....or similar 1938 "Robin Hood" Friar Tuck stereotype.....)

If I remember that film correctly, Friar Tuck beat the Sheriff over the head with a cudgel...

 

[Neonchameleon]

In terms of verisimilitude, which is a more faithful representation of the monk?

Both are depending on the setting. But cloistered monks make for terrible adventurers. They don't leave their cloiseters. Also the fundamental design principle of D&D was "We made up some we thought would be fun". Versimilitude didn't come into it.

 

[Morrus]

A D&D monk does, yeah. A supernatural martial-arty monk. The Friar Tuck archetype is a cleric. I guess folks could change the names of the classes if they were looking for some kind of real-world setting, but that's what they are in D&D.

 

[delericho]

The class name 'monk' is probably not the best. Basically, when I think of the class I think "Street Fighter".

 

[pemerton]

Looking at it from a D&D point of view, European monks are much more like priests, than Asian monks, which gives them access to divine spells - which makes European monks some derivative of Cleric. Asian monks while religious are generally not considered priests, thus not having access to divine spells (which arguably is not true, Buddhist monks did indeed perform rituals that could be imagined as casting divine spells).

Historically, most Christian "monks" were not priests - they were lay people who had taken holy orders. Likewise for the military orders (Templars, etc). D&D has always been a bit uncertain about whether or not divine magic implies ordination.

The confusion/complexity around Buddhist and RPG pseudo-Buddhist monks reflects a deeper confusion (not confined to D&D) about how to categorise the doctrines and practices of a widespread and popular religion where theology in the strict sense is not the religion's main concern (but in which folk tales of miracle working, otherwordly spirits and the like are just as common as in every other widespread and popular religion).

In AD&D's Oriental Adventures they split the difference: monks were non-divine, ki-ish/psi-ish superb martial artists (who oddly didn't have automatic access to meditation), while shukenja were divinely-inspired miracle workers whose martial arts was at the "ordinary" level (a free style but nothing more). (For maximum flexibility/overlap, there was also the kensai, who could meditate like a shukenja and who could choose one weapon or martial arts style to focus on, but who mechancially was more like a fighter variant than a mystical sort of character.)

 

[gamerprinter]

In AD&D's Oriental Adventures they split the difference: monks were non-divine, ki-ish/psi-ish superb martial artists (who oddly didn't have automatic access to meditation), while shukenja were divinely-inspired miracle workers whose martial arts was at the "ordinary" level (a free style but nothing more). (For maximum flexibility/overlap, there was also the kensai, who could meditate like a shukenja and who could choose one weapon or martial arts style to focus on, but who mechancially was more like a fighter variant than a mystical sort of character.)

So far in my published Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) monks don't exist at all. Now in the southern main isle of Kaidan, Ryuki, is supposed to be like Okinawa, so it does make sense for a PF monk to exist there, but much of what makes a PF monk, a monk, is more Chinese than Japanese, so is why there has been little effort to bring it into Kaidan. Sohei better represents the "monk" of Kaidan (Japan), which in Kaidan is not a monk archetype, rather a cleric archetype. In Kaidan the ascestic priests of Shugendo are Kensei (not kensai, which is a misspelling/mispronounciation) which in Kaidan is a paladin archetype. Kaidan also features an inquisitor archetype called the Metsuki that serves the shogunate in search for heretics and traitors. So while its still imperfect trying to fit square blocks in round holes, Kaidan attempts to readress the monk/cleric issue in what seems to me a closer representation to feudal Japan than the way it was presented in Oriental Adventures.

Being both half Japanese and an amateur historian, I wanted to align Kaidan closer to authentic feudal Japan, as I had never been satisfied with Oriental Adventrues, nor Rokugan - so Kaidan in a lot of ways, is my attempt to fix those issues.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Monk only implies kung-fu fighting if you're stuck thinking in terms of PHB classes. I frequently have NPCs refer to certain clergy as monks. Female mages are collectively called witches. Male mages are wizards. This can lead to some funny moments depending on the group. In the last campaign I ran the munchkin couldn't get his head around why the "witch" didn't have certain spells available.

 

[gamerprinter]

Monk only implies kung-fu fighting if you're stuck thinking in terms of PHB classes. I frequently have NPCs refer to certain clergy as monks. Female mages are collectively called witches. Male mages are wizards. This can lead to some funny moments depending on the group. In the last campaign I ran the munchkin couldn't get his head around why the "witch" didn't have certain spells available.

What I didn't say, was that all clerics, ascetic monks, and paladins in Kaidan are called "monks", but none of them are the D&D/PF monk class.

This is kind of like the fact that samurai, in Kaidan is both a character class and a social caste. Many people are members of the samurai caste yet aren't necessarily samurai player class.