Do Undead Still Have Souls?

[LuYangShih]

I was looking at a few of the Undead creatures today, and I started to wonder, do all of the Undead still retain the spiritual essence they had when they were alive? In other words, if a character dies, and they are reanimated as a Skeleton, does their soul go on to Valhalla or what have you, or is it trapped in the Undead body? And if that's true, would this be the rationale for the Animate/Create Undead chain of spells having the evil descriptor?

Clearly, some Undead retain the basic thought patterns and memories of their previous lives, like Vampires and Liches, but do they still retain their souls, or are they another being that now possesses the body? Is a different being altogether present in the host body, or has the former occupants soul been corrupted? Just wondering the opinions other people have on this, as I'm considering running an Undead centered campaign, and stuff like this would be good to know.

 

[Alzrius]

If you're looking for a hard-and-fast rule here, D&D rules aren't going to provide you with much. This sort of thing tends to be nebulous enough that it's a "DM's perogative" answer.

That said, 2E did have some answers to this. In 2E, characters who became sentient undead did not have their souls go on to the Outer Planes. No petitioner forms on the plane of their alignment or domain of their god, and their memory core doesn't go to the Astral Plane. It was hinted at, though never outrightly said, that destroying undead sent them to oblivion, soul and all. There was no repository of "undead who are no more". It was also vaguely noted that undead don't keep their souls however, and negative energy now resides where the soul once was. The presumption here was that an undead's soul has been destroyed (or is somehow trapped in the undead shell, since they could still be resurrected).

As to whether those who become skeletons or zombies have no soul pass on...that's slightly more difficult to adjudicate. 2E had no answer there. I personally would say no, mindless undeads' souls do not pass on. The spells that make them undead trap the soul in their rotting corpse, though I'd rule this for the sake of mere simplicity, and because even mindless undead can be granted sentience.

Note that vampires and liches retain more than "basic thought patterns and memories". These creatures retain all their intelligence and memories of their old lives. Ghouls and wights and such are the ones that only seem "semi-sentient". Also, its pretty well understood that an undead is the same person it was when alive...just with a warped personality.

EDIT: I recommend you pic up Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead, a 3E Ravenloft product that can be used in any setting. It has some great flavor text on the nature of undead, specifically lesser corporeal undead, along with a great variety of new powers and such.

 

[maddman75]

I know of two possible paths you could take. The first is that the souls are trapped in the undead body, driven insane and (in the case of skeletons and zombies) bent to the will of hte spellcaster. This is why creating or consorting with undead is evil with a big E.

The second, the 'Buffy' explaination, is that the undead is not the person that once lived. It is a demon, one that has stolen the form and oftentimes the memories of the person that once lived, but it is not them in any way.

 

[Larry Fitz]

The spells have the evil descriptor because it's bad to play with corpses. Things like that should only be atempted by a licensed and experienced Necromancer or Houngan.

Think about it. If you read about someone digging up corpses for their own purposes would you question anyone who said "Digging up corpses? Like from their graves? Wow, those dudes are evil." No, you'd accept that value judgement. Death is part of the natural order, we are born, we live our lives, we die, and our bodies are taken care of by those who cared for us in life. In some ways the respectful treatment of our corpses is the last kindness we receive. When someone abuses a corpse, such abuse revolts most people who hear of it. Ceremonial burial is one of the earliest things in a civilizations development from barbarism.

On the soul issue, I play it that until the proper ceremony takes place a soul is not "at rest" and if the corpse is subsequently animated the soul is aware of it and tormented by the knowledge while in the afterlife, unless of course undeath was a goal of the deceased.

 

[Quip]

Another possiblity is that the souls are neither trapped within the undead nor at rest nor destroyed. Rather, they are trapped halfway between life and the afterlife, and is in torment because of it. Intelligent undead can be in a similar state, but with soul pulled closer to the undead so that the memory and personality is partially still there. I would consider such a soul still tormented however, regardless of how the undead feels about it.

 

[s/LaSH]

I'd be inclined to consider three possibilities, possible coincident.

First, mindless undead like the zombie or skeleton. These are fairly clearly free of personality and move only clumsily. These undead are manipulated by magic, much like a golem (only it's evil magic). No soul, no personality.

Second, the aware undead. Creatures with minds and personalities such as ghouls and vampires. These creatures generally retain languages from life - but although they may have the same basic personality, they're largely evil. I think this is probably the Buffy/Angel model: the corpse has released its original soul, which performs certain functions like the consciense, and had it replaced by some evil spirit which has no conscience and is capable of warping the body, to some extent, to reflect its 'true' form. Look at the end of Season 2 of Angel (ironically, they only just screened it in my country) - you see what a vampire demon really looks like, and damn is it nasty. Also, consider Angel himself. He's 'The vampire with a soul', and he goes around trying to do good.

What does this model mean? The soul is fairly clearly released (nobody but Angel and Spike have souls). However, the soul does not dictate knowledge or personality; it seems to be the home of morality. Further, the demon that replaces the soul seems to be able to 'lay eggs' in its victims. A rather hideous thought.

Third, the voluntary undead. This is blurry. Things such as the lich cast aside their mortality for the price of a little skin and body odour. There's no way this is an 'infected' undead. The question is, Does it have a soul? If it does, you may well be looking at an archlich (the ultra-rare good or neutral variant). But why are they so rare? I suspect it's because voluntary undead cast out their soul and get a fresh spirit in its place. Again, the soul is unnecessary.

So, I think no undead have souls. However - this doesn't mean the soul is free; Devourers, for example, capture souls and feed off them. If so, where does the soul go? And is it dissimilar to the 'spirit', or sentience, of a being? (Theology now. Spirit is what sets humans apart from animals, which only have souls. The 'soul', it would seem, is not just morality but is lifeforce itself. The thing that makes your legs move or your hair grow.)

The spirit is quite definitely still held within the body (except for mindless undead); this would probably preclude raising until you blast the corpse to pieces. A lich would store its spirit in a phylactery. Most people would lose the spirit when they were killed, but it seems infectious undead can set up a 'spirit web' or something to ensnare their victims' spirit, like Trap The Soul or Magic Jar only with the body. Thus an undead cannot be raised until destroyed.

Whew, that's nasty. There is one possible 'out': assimilating the soul and spirit into one package in your theology, and claiming that the 'spirit' left in the body is just an impression, like a footprint in the clay. Thence, you can use True Resurrection on an undead person, and create a duplicate that's not undead, but only under this model.

 

[Seaver]

I was thinking about this myself awhile back after fully reading the description of True Resurrection, specifically the line (from the SRD):

"The character can revive someone killed by a death effect..." normally no raising someone from a death effect I believe, "...or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed."


So first an undead must be destroyed before being resurrected. Therefor the soul must be tied to that state of being in some way.


This all reminds me of the undead from the Death Gate Cycle series of books.

The souls are tied to the bodies, tormented by their condition while necromantic magic keeps the body animated. The undead resent their condition, even though some still maintain their loyalties despite their constant anguish. I especially liked the visual description of the undead. The souls tied to, but not quite in sync with the bodies. The mind, body, and soul separate entities, not meant to be disconnected.

The undead do not necessarily behave as they did in life. In fact, well...I don't really want too give to much away in case someone may read those books.

I do recommend reading at least the book focusing on the world with the undead and seeing how they handled it. Fire Sea is title of that one, the third in the series. It may be available at the library.

 

[S'mon]

1e had a life force/soul distinction. You need the life force to raise the dead, and it would be trapped in the body of the undead form (hence undead couldn't be raised). It could be dispersed by eg destruction of undead form, by death magic (eg 'finger of death', 'death spell'), or by a failed resurrection survival roll.

Souls by contrast are a lot tougher/intangible, although they could be trapped, I don't think there was any official way to destroy one. Generally speaking, a soul would not be trapped in an undead form, bar some kind of evil magic. On death the soul went to an eternal afterlife. Elves and most other nonhumans had spirits rather than souls, this meant they couldn't be 'raised' and would eventually reincarnate.

3e seems to have got rid of the life force idea, so all you need is the soul, making it very hard to keep dead (N)PCs dead!
I think this was a mistake so I keep the life force/soul distinction.

 

[Hadit]

I would say that skeletons and zombies do NOT have souls... they are simply corpses animated by negative energy.
All intelligent undead DO have souls... warped to evil by negative energy. Their souls are trapped from passing on.
The rare exception is the neutral lich, which chooses it's fate. These creatures are so intelligent and eldritch that the concept of good and evil is blurry and abstract for them. They hold their own souls in bondage.

 

[Tonguez]

IMC all mortals have
1. body- the physical part
2. soul- the power source that moves the body
3. spirit - the selfaware immortal part

Incorporeal Undead (Ghosts etc) have spirit and soul, no body

Mindless UnDead (Zombi etc) have Body and Soul, no Spirit (replaced by magic - the spirit is trapped in the Shadow plane*)

Intelligent Dead (Ghoul, Vampires) have Body and Spirit but their soulds are replaced with negative energy (from thre Shadow plane)

* Shadows IMC are Spirits of a destroyed Undead who have been fully corrupted by the Shadow Plane - as they gain power they become Nightshades (my explanation of why shadows don't take over the world - once they reach a critical mass the shadows merge and become a Nightshade of some type (Nightwings are my favourite)