D&D 5E Do monks get enough Ki?

[Mort]

Monks can do some neat stuff with ki:

Dodge as a free action - very useful.
Disengage, dash, double jump as a free action - also good.
Flurry of blows - essentially 1 extra attack in the round, damage is small because it's unarmed strike, but still three attacks in 1 round.
The monastic tradition powers - tripping, forced movement and spell powers, some are quite good.

Problem is, all of these (excepting a few of the spell powers) take ki to do 1 thing for 1 round (or even only 1 action). That means, at low levels, the monk will burn through all his ki in about half of 1 encounter if he's not careful, and even if he is careful the ki will go very fast. Contrary to, for example, the barbarian, who also has a limited resource (rage) but one that will likely last all or at least most of the encounter if the barbarian chooses to trigger it (and has many more effects for the 1 use than a monks ki point).

This was ok(ish) when a short rest was 5 minutes, but when it's an hour? The monk will likely go several encounters with no ki and that just seems extremely harsh for a class that depends on it for effect.

Obviously, as DM, I can muck with the short rest times as much as I like, but I'm just wondering if I'm missing something big that equalizes the monk.

Thoughts?

 

[ranger69]

Not yet seen a monk in action so it is difficult to say. My feeling is that the Monk is a little low on Ki points at lower levels especially.
It can be argued that they have plenty of other class features therefore they do not need a lot of Ki.
If you feel that a monk character needs more Ki then three options come to mind.
1) A feat that gives a certain number of Ki points once, maybe three. However, as feats are optional this may not be the answer to for all groups.
2) Add a monk characters wisdom modifier to the number of Ki points available. So that a 2nd level monk with 17 wisdom will have a +3 modifier and the 2 from class level giving a total of 5 Ki points at 2nd level.
3) Rule that the Ki points are per encounter, as per the 3.5 edition Factotum inspiration points worked. However, then the Ki points may be a little high at later levels.
It would be interesting to see what others think?

 

[practicalm]

I like number 2 and I might use it for the monk that just started in my game. I'm not sure about the amount of Ki points yet so I'll hold it in reserve for after some more play.

 

[Paraxis]

I like number 2 and I might use it for the monk that just started in my game. I'm not sure about the amount of Ki points yet so I'll hold it in reserve for after some more play.

Great way to play around with house rules like this is to make it a magic item.

An Ki amulet, it adds Wis modifier to the monks Ki pool when attuned. Simple as that, this way if you decide the number needs to change, remove it, or whatever it isn't you changing up house rules but the magic item growing in power or getting stolen or destroyed.

 

[Li Shenron]

This was ok(ish) when a short rest was 5 minutes, but when it's an hour? The monk will likely go several encounters with no ki and that just seems extremely harsh for a class that depends on it for effect.

Obviously, as DM, I can muck with the short rest times as much as I like, but I'm just wondering if I'm missing something big that equalizes the monk.

Thoughts?

My first thought is that the short rest was normally meant to happen between encounters, so there aren't several encounters between short rests but only one.

It's a strong assumption and I don't know if really the designers had this in mind. Some gaming groups play many encounters in a row, and it used to be the case for example in dungeon crawls. However I also think the game overall still assumes 3-5 encounters per day, so if you have "several" encounters without a short rest, that starts to mean "most" of your daily encounters without a short rest, and you're shifting the balance in favor of those characters who have few or no abilities based on short rests.

I think the DMG should have clear information about this sort of thing... if not, then some L&L or Sage Advice article is needed.

 

[Mort]

Great way to play around with house rules like this is to make it a magic item.

An Ki amulet, it adds Wis modifier to the monks Ki pool when attuned. Simple as that, this way if you decide the number needs to change, remove it, or whatever it isn't you changing up house rules but the magic item growing in power or getting stolen or destroyed.

That was actually my exact thought.

I'm planning on giving the monk a "headband of ultimate focus." It will have charges like a wand and replenish like a wand. If it proves too much the charges will fade. If it proves perfect, the ki will eventually become inherent (it was him all along, bit cheesy, but hey).

 

[Mort]

My first thought is that the short rest was normally meant to happen between encounters, so there aren't several encounters between short rests but only one.

It's a strong assumption and I don't know if really the designers had this in mind. Some gaming groups play many encounters in a row, and it used to be the case for example in dungeon crawls. However I also think the game overall still assumes 3-5 encounters per day, so if you have "several" encounters without a short rest, that starts to mean "most" of your daily encounters without a short rest, and you're shifting the balance in favor of those characters who have few or no abilities based on short rests.

I think the DMG should have clear information about this sort of thing... if not, then some L&L or Sage Advice article is needed.

That was my thought too.

But at least 5 minutes between encounters is easy and flows very well.

An hour, on the other hand, is a long enough time to put that assumption in doubt.

My other thought, is that the designers simply forgot to adjust the monks ki when they made the decision to lengthen the short rest. The Battle Master fighter, for example, had his initial number of superiority dice doubled after the change.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think second level is the only one where the lack of Ki makes a difference.

Once a PC gets to third level, Deflect Missiles and other abilities come into play. For example, a third level Way of the Open Hand monk can knock a foe prone with a Flurry of Blows attacks. He then gets advantage against the prone foe for the rest of his attacks in the round. That's pretty huge. Not only does the Monk get advantage against this prone foe, but so do other PCs until that NPC's init comes back up.

Second level is the main level where additional synergies like these do not come into play. I haven't seen a PC Monk in action, but I did see an 8th level NPC Monk in action last night and he just kicked butt like you wouldn't believe against 6th or 7th level foes. Stunning Strike is pretty sweet.

And things like Patient Dodge, although limited by Ki, are big defense boosts that most other PCs do not get.


A low level Monk can just fight with two short swords until he gets to the level where Ki comes more into play and he won't be outclassed too much by other melee combatants (except possibly the Rogue).

Monk is just one of those classes that start out weaker and end up getting much stronger.

 

[Mort]

I think second level is the only one where the lack of Ki makes a difference.

Once a PC gets to third level, Deflect Missiles and other abilities come into play. For example, a third level Way of the Open Hand monk can knock a foe prone with a Flurry of Blows attacks. He then gets advantage against the prone foe for the rest of his attacks in the round. That's pretty huge. Not only does the Monk get advantage against this prone foe, but so do other PCs until that NPC's init comes back up.

It's a good benefit, but VERY limited use at low levels. Heck you can get a feat that knocks people prone as a free action, and you can use that ability each and every round.

Second level is the main level where additional synergies like these do not come into play. I haven't seen a PC Monk in action, but I did see an 8th level NPC Monk in action last night and he just kicked butt like you wouldn't believe against 6th or 7th level foes. Stunning Strike is pretty sweet.

It's nice to not have to worry about saving your ki for the next encounter!

And things like Patient Dodge, although limited by Ki, are big defense boosts that most other PCs do not get.

Quite nice yes, but you get to do it very few times. And there is a cost: if you patient dodge, you can't flurry for example (not that you have enough ki to make that worthwhile anyway).

A low level Monk can just fight with two short swords until he gets to the level where Ki comes more into play and he won't be outclassed too much by other melee combatants (except possibly the Rogue).

Monk is just one of those classes that start out weaker and end up getting much stronger.

I've always thought suck now, good later, is a horrible balancing method.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's a good benefit, but VERY limited use at low levels. Heck you can get a feat that knocks people prone as a free action, and you can use that ability each and every round.

Which feat might that be? I cannot find such a feat in the PHB.

It's nice to not have to worry about saving your ki for the next encounter!

While that's true, it is often true for PCs as well. Our group took out a group of foes in HotDQ, then waited for more foes to show up. Plenty of time to get in a short rest, in fact, it ended up that the other foes did not show up until the next day because they had not yet been alarmed (they were a few miles away). This happen again the next day (course, we were outnumbered 2 to 1 with higher level foes that third fight).

Granted, there are scenarios where short rests do not often occur, but smart players often figure out ways to gain short rests.

Often the DM does not control the short rests. The players do. The DM controls the consequences of taking a short rest.

Unless players want to suck up a lot of their Potions of Healing and use a lot of their healing spells, a certain number of short rests are even mandatory to continue on. Someone in a group will be seriously hurt after many encounters.

Quite nice yes, but you get to do it very few times. And there is a cost: if you patient dodge, you can't flurry for example (not that you have enough ki to make that worthwhile anyway).

Yes, if you are being defensive, you cannot be offensive.

This is no different than a lot of additional effects that use bonus actions. You can only use one of them.

How is this so limiting as to affect the discussion of Ki?

I've always thought suck now, good later, is a horrible balancing method.

You mean like 5E Wizards?

This is a fairly standard game element for D&D.