Do familiars grant "real" Alertness?

[0-hr]

Could a a Wizard with a Familiar claim that he has the "Alertness" feat and so quailfy for a PrC such as Alienist? Or must the wizard actually spend a "real" feat to meet the prerequisite?

 

[Crothian]

Could a a Wizard with a Familiar claim that he has the "Alertness" feat and so quailfy for a PrC such as Alienist? Or must the wizard actually spend a "real" feat to meet the prerequisite?

Well, if the familiar ever leaves his side he looses the feat, so there for no longer qualifies for the class and looses all the special abilities.

He should take the feat.

 

[0-hr]

Fair enough. But for toads and whatnot that just live in a pocket their entire lives, this is a viable option? And you just lose the PrC abilitites until the familiar comes back within range right? Since it's not a permanent loss, it's not really that big of a deal (at least compared to spending a feat).

If a wizard takes this option and then the familiar moves out of range, what PrC abilities would be lost?

It seems clear that they would lose the special abilities of the PrC.
But what about spell progression?
How about skill points?
What about hit points, BAB, and saves?

Exactly how much goes away when you lose a prerequisite to a PrC?

 

[Henrix]

I'd say it does not count as a virtual feat.
Just as having a "Ring of Alertness" would not qualify.

The alertness gained from the familiar is an ability of the familiar, not of the magic-user.

 

[Storm Raven]

I'd say it does not count as a virtual feat.
Just as having a "Ring of Alertness" would not qualify.

Actually, having a Ring of Alertness would qualify as having the feat. Just as having a Belt of Giant Strength would help one qualify for the Power Attack feat.

The alertness gained from the familiar is an ability of the familiar, not of the magic-user.

Why? The familiar himself is a class ability of the Wizard or Sorcerer, why are benefits gained via that class ability not also class abilities of the spellcaster?

 

[Crothian]

Fair enough. But for toads and whatnot that just live in a pocket their entire lives, this is a viable option? And you just lose the PrC abilitites until the familiar comes back within range right? Since it's not a permanent loss, it's not really that big of a deal (at least compared to spending a feat).

What happens when the familiar dies? You just lost a lot of abilities until you can get a new one. Now, your DM might be nice and never target a familiar in which case this would work perfectly. Talk it over him him and see what he says

If a wizard takes this option and then the familiar moves out of range, what PrC abilities would be lost?

It seems clear that they would lose the special abilities of the PrC.
But what about spell progression?
How about skill points?
What about hit points, BAB, and saves?

Exactly how much goes away when you lose a prerequisite to a PrC?

You lose all the special abilities including the spell levels gained through the class. You keep skill points, HP, BAB, and saves.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Re: Do familiars grant "real" Alertness?

Well, if the familiar ever leaves his side he looses the feat, so there for no longer qualifies for the class and looses all the special abilities.

He should take the feat.

IMC, I don't let it work towards PrC's to avoid this kind of silliness.

For some PrC's it may make sense that they lose their powers when the requirements are lost, but for many of them it does not make sense at all. Alienist is a good one- no longer being alert is not going to stop your descent into madness.

FD

 

[Henrix]

Actually, having a Ring of Alertness would qualify as having the feat.

Not according to the virtual feats description in the splatbooks.
According to that class features or special abilities count as prerequisites, and magic items and familiars are neither class features nor special abilities.
Calling a familiar is a class feature, but the abilities granted by them are not.

IMHO you have to have the prerequisite permanently.

It quickly becomes too silly, otherwise.

 

[drnuncheon]

Not according to the virtual feats description in the splatbooks.
According to that class features or special abilities count as prerequisites, and magic items and familiars are neither class features nor special abilities.
Calling a familiar is a class feature, but the abilities granted by them are not.

IMHO you have to have the prerequisite permanently.

It quickly becomes too silly, otherwise.

Right. My personal rule of thumb is, "if you want a permanent benefit, you need a permanent prerequisite".

An inherent bonus to strength is not going to go away, so you can use it to qualify for Power Attack. The enhancement bonus of your Belt of Giant Strength, does, though - so no good.

Hit points, spells/day, and maximum spell levels are not permanent, so any bonus will raise them. Skill points, on the other hand, are - so magic items won't help you (except inasmuch as they raise your Int bonus, giving you a higher roll on Int-based skills).

J

 

[LokiDR]

I think this question has also come up when talking about skill points and head bands of intellect. The solution I heard for that problem was the moment you take off the head band, the skill points go away and don't come back when you put the headband back on.

It is just stupid to use familiar abilities for prereqs. What if a wizard was barred from casting scry, but was 13th level so he could scry on his familar. Could he use that for a prereq that says "be able to cast scry"? No.