DMM Persistent Spell - Do You Allow It?

[nittanytbone]

Hello,

Just wanted to run a quick poll and see how common a "ban" is on this feat combination. I've explained it below if you're not familiar with it.

Here's the Trick:

Feats Required - Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM Persistent Spell

PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Prerequisite: Extend Spell.

Benefit: A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Divine Metamagic allows you to use Turn Undead attempts instead of increasing the spell level of the target spell. For example, to DMM an Extended spell would require you to pay 1+1 = 2 turn undead attempts. To DMM a Persistent Spell would require 6+1 = 7 Turn Undead Attempts.

This combination is totally within the rules and commonly accepted as technically legal.

Spells Commonly Persisted

This tactic really takes off around level 7, when Divine Power can be persisted. Righteous Might is also a favorite. Some party buffs such as Bless can also be made to last all day. There are a wide variety of Persist-able spells out there.

A Step Further

This is commonly combined with Nightsticks (7500 GP each from Libris Mortis; Give +4 turn undead attempts), Extra Turning (core feat), or Radiant Servant of Pelor (PrC from Complete Divine). The Planning and Undeath Domains can augment as well by granting required feats.

Eagle's Glory (core spell) can grant +2 turn attempts to fire up the DMM, and the Lust domain allows you to "nova" your CHA and fire up DMM.

The inquisition domain allows you to get a +4 to your dispel checks, making the buffs harder to dispel.

NOTE THAT YOU CANNOT USE ELEMENTAL TURN ATTEMPTS FROM THE ELEMENTAL DOMAINS TO FUEL THIS!!! Only Turn Undead attempts count.

Limitations of the Tactic

- Feats: Using DMM Persistent requires that you invest at least 3 feats (probably 4 - extra turning) into the trick. Feats are a precious resource for most clerics, so this cost is not inconsequential.

- Ability Scores: This requires a CHA-focus. Clerics are a fairly high MAD class so this is a sacrifice, assuming standard point-buy for ability scores.

- Dispel Magic: A simple Dispel Magic can wipe the buff away, making all those feats and turn attempts and equipment worthless.

- Uses Turn Undead Attempts: While turning undead is usually pointless, sometimes it is handy. Some days a cleric might prefer to have turn attempts left than to have Divine Power running.

 

[Pyrex]

It's a fairly large investment to make it work given that (generally) it only works for one spell per day.

I'd look real hard at any combo that allowed a second divine-Persistant spell and probably make tweaks to make a third nigh-impossible. (21 turn attempts!)

 

[Mistwell]

This combo consistently makes the top ten most broken combinations in the game (top 5 really). It is not "common", except on lists of "commonly used incredibly broken things". Indeed in my experience I have yet to meet a sane DM who allowed it, once that DM understood the ramifications.

I am firmly on the player lieniency side of debates on EnWorld. I almost never called something broken. My personal list of broken things is extemely small. And yet, this ranks pretty close to number one on the list.

The problem is that DMM lacks the restriction that every other similar ability in the game has. That being that you shouldn't be able to use DMM to cast a spell of a level that you wouldn't ordinarily have access to yet. So for example, if you use DMM to cast a metamagicked spell of level 7, then your character should be able to ordinarily cast level 7 spells. This is how the bardic music feat that does this same thing works. This is how one of the incantatrix special abilities that does this works. This is how almost all other similar abilities work, except for DMM.

I think it was an unfortunate error in the rules text that the left out the level cap restriction, and I strongly suspect some day WOTC will get around to issuing errata on this subject to fix it (just like they did with other similar abilities).

 

[Mistwell]

It's a fairly large investment to make it work given that (generally) it only works for one spell per day.

I'd look real hard at any combo that allowed a second divine-Persistant spell and probably make tweaks to make a third nigh-impossible. (21 turn attempts!)

Don't let the investment of feats, or the "one time a day", fool you. The feats in question are usually gained for free by careful selection of domains (Planning Domain gives Extend for Free; Undeath Domain gives Extra Turning for free). The "one time a day" is to gain a massively powerful ability that is balanced for use for one round or a single encounter, and blown up into an all-day effect. It's also usually more than one time a day. In fact, the most common "optimized" build gives you two persistable spells at level 3!

 

[James McMurray]

You're spending four feats for the trick. I allow it, and have never seen anyone take it. There's just too much other stuff you can do with 4 feats and 7 turn attempts.

I don't allow it in arenas though, because the characters get to cherry pick their gear, PrCs, etc. and can easily get enough turn attempts to persist 4 or 5 spells per day. There's also the aesthetics issue: one party member and perhaps one BBEG using the trick can be cool. Every other cleric in a 30 character arena using it is boring.

 

[Tigerbunny]

I've never had an issue with it, but most of my play hasn't reached the levels where it's a problem. I'm of the opinion that given the general rule that you can't metamagic a spell you couldn't otherwise cast (and I do NOT see that DMM breaks that restriction by text - absence of specific enforcement of a general case is not the same as making an exception to that case) and the large feat-investment, it's like most other "broken" combos - something that makes a character into a one-trick pony, and thus only fun as wankery.

My general rule is "sure, you can do that, but we'll all laugh at you."

 

[pallandrome]

I vote for OK, but Limited.

The group I typically game with does not powergame, and are therefore unaware of the disruptive effects it can have on an unprepared group. I would most certainly focus on educating the interested player, and making certain that they understand that they will NOT be getting free reign with the feat.

 

[takasi]

One houserule that considerably nerfs Divine Metamagic is to make it so the slot the spell would normally need to occupy cannot exceed the highest level spell the cleric can cast.

For example, a cleric would not be able to quicken cast a cure light wounds using divine metamagic until he could cast 5th level spells.

It's still a useful feat that allows a cleric to do something he normally wouldn't be able to do without using a 5th level slot. But he would never be able to divine metamagic a Persistent Righteous Might as it would be an 11th level spell.

 

[Thanee]

I generally don't allow Divine Metamagic to work with Persistent Spell or Quicken Spell.

Other combinations are fine but still require approval.

I would allow it flat-out, when the maximum level of a spell, which it could be applied to, is equal to the highest level you can cast minus the appropriate metamagic modifier (i.e. 6 for Persistent or 4 for Quicken).

Bye
Thanee

 

[seans23]

One houserule that considerably nerfs Divine Metamagic is to make it so the slot the spell would normally need to occupy cannot exceed the highest level spell the cleric can cast.

wow, that's a houserule? I thought that was just common sense.