Divine Favor, Divine Power & Righteous Might

[Grayhawk]

I don't mind a cleric being able to be a decent fighter through the use of buffs, but these 3 spells are taking it too far, IMO.

Do you think that Divine Favor would be a worthwhile spell, even if it never improved? (What other 1st level spells have this level of growth as you go up in levels?)

Have any of you houseruled Divine Power & Righteous Might?

If so, how?

 

[Darklone]

My houserule consists of extensive dispel magic by the opponents

No honestly. I think the GMW change to +1/4 levels is good... and think about applying it to Greater Magic Vestment, Divine Favour and the other stuff.

Divine Power and Righteous Might...
Nope. My fights tend to go a long time, these buffs are nice but leave the cleric usually pretty helpless in a situation where they would need it.

 

[Hammerhead]

Considering a cleric has to waste 3 rounds buffing himself, they are more than fair.

Considering the Divine Favor question, what about Magic Missile (5d4+5, automatic hit) or Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+5 Str loss, no save). There are several powerful spells at 1st level. If Divine Favor only provided a +1 bonus to attacks and damage, no one would ever cast it. At low levels, it'd be more efficient to save it for a curing spell or protection from evil or something else...at higher levels, why bother wasting a round for a measely +1 bonus?

I've never house-ruled Divine Power, Righteous Might, or Divine Favor. Although the Cleric is more powerful than other classes (not to make this a "Clerics are broken!" thread), this was intentional given the Cleric's often boring task of healing other loser party members who get themselves hurt.

 

[Aaron2]

I houseruled Divine Power to give a to-hit bonus instead of increasing BAB. My problem with BAB was more to do with rules consistancy (no other spell or ability affects BAB) than power.


Aaron

 

[Grayhawk]

Considering the Divine Favor question, what about Magic Missile (5d4+5, automatic hit) or Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+5 Str loss, no save). There are several powerful spells at 1st level. If Divine Favor only provided a +1 bonus to attacks and damage, no one would ever cast it. At low levels, it'd be more efficient to save it for a curing spell or protection from evil or something else...at higher levels, why bother wasting a round for a measely +1 bonus?

Because that 'measly +1 bonus' equals a +2 to your strenght score?

Bless (another 1st level spell) grants a +1 bonus. (And while it's true that it affects several targets and has a longer duration, I feel that a bonus to damage is worth more than a bonus to fear saves, as a damage bonus will come into play more often than a save bonus).

It's true that Magic Missile and the 3.5 Ray of Enfeeblement are powerful spells, but even they max out at 9th or 10th level. Divine Favor keeps getting better until 15th level, at which point it grants you a bonus of +6 to attack and damage rolls, which (for those types of rolls) equals a strenght bonus of +12, and which pretty much stacks with everything (being a luck bonus).

And it's a 1st level spell...

 

[Hammerhead]

Because that 'measly +1 bonus' equals a +2 to your strenght score?

Bless (another 1st level spell) grants a +1 bonus. (And while it's true that it affects several targets and has a longer duration, I feel that a bonus to damage is worth more than a bonus to fear saves, as a damage bonus will come into play more often than a save bonus).

It's true that Magic Missile and the 3.5 Ray of Enfeeblement are powerful spells, but even they max out at 9th or 10th level. Divine Favor keeps getting better until 15th level, at which point it grants you a bonus of +6 to attack and damage rolls, which (for those types of rolls) equals a strenght bonus of +12, and which pretty much stacks with everything (being a luck bonus).

And it's a 1st level spell...

The measly +1 bonus does not equal a bonus to your Strength score. It doesn't affect two hander damage, Str checks, or skills.

Bless grants a bonus to everyone; that makes it far better than giving yourself a +1 bonus to attacks and damage, especially if you have other spells to cast and lack the appropriate ability scores (good Str, Con, Dex that Fighters have, whereas Clerics use points on Wis and Cha)

It's not an equivalent Strength bonus; it's 'just' a bonus to Attack and Damage. Your comparison is flawed. Divine Favor keeps going up, because at it's early uses it isn't very good at all. Would you rather it stopped at +1? While it doesn't follow standard 1st level spell convention, that doesn't make it broken. It's a short duration, personal buffing spell that helps the cleric in combat if he wants to cast it. Is it good? Yes. Does it unbalance the game or make the cleric super-powerful? In my actual, game-play experience with several clerics who have used Divine Favor, no. Does your problem with Divine Favor stem from a gameplay issue?


FYI, Divine Favor maxes at 18th level, not 15th.

 

[FireLance]

I houseruled Divine Power to give a to-hit bonus instead of increasing BAB. My problem with BAB was more to do with rules consistancy (no other spell or ability affects BAB) than power.


Aaron

Tenser's Transformation also affects BAB. The downside is that the caster cannot cast spells while under its effect, but since a wizard starts out with less BAB, he gains more than a cleric.

 

[Grayhawk]

Does your problem with Divine Favor stem from a gameplay issue?

No. But I've seen a few threads lamenting the cleric's fighting cababilities when buffed with the 3 spells mentioned above, and I'd rather fix any problems before encountering them myself.

(And while Divine Favor might be perfectly balanced for a 'normal' 3.x game, my campaign is slightly lower magic and doesn't allow for characters to buy their magic off the rack. Also, the characters are build using the standard array, and when the cleric has a strenght of 13 and the fighter has a strenght of 15 it doesn't take much buffing for the cleric to outshine the fighter.)

FYI, Divine Favor maxes at 18th level, not 15th.

That's what I initially thought as well. But if it imrproves every 3rd level, wouldn't you say that the bonus goes up to +2 at 3rd level (since it starts out at +1 at 1st level?) If so, it will max out at +6 at 15th.

 

[Hammerhead]

No, the text of the spell reads: "Calling upon the strength and wisdom of a deity, you gain a +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels you have (at least +1, maximum +6). The bonus doesn’t apply to spell damage."

This means that even if you're only a 1st level caster, you still gain a +1 bonus to damage at 1st level, and this bonus remains the same from levels 1 to 5.

When the Cleric does cast these three buffs, he's generally not doing something else, like fighting. He'll probably have to cast these buffs in the middle of combat, given their short durations. So he spends 3 rounds making himself into a powerful melee combatant while the Fighter wades in hacking. Furthermore, Dispel Magics and the like tend to be very commonly aimed against Clerics (and other spellcasters), and he'll feel very vulnerable without all of his protective spells running.

 

[Grayhawk]

This means that even if you're only a 1st level caster, you still gain a +1 bonus to damage at 1st level, and this bonus remains the same from levels 1 to 5.

Since you seem to believe that a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls isn't worth a spell slot ('why bother wasting a round for a measely +1 bonus?') - even if it stacks with almost everything - what we have here is a 1st level spell that's useless for 5 levels, after which it suddenly picks up, growing in power until 18th level (like no other 1st level spell), at which point it maxes out with a +6 bonus.

For a spell to bestow those kind of bonuses, it should be higher level, IMO.

Besides, lots (most?) low level spells 'fade out' or lose effeciency at higher levels. That's why we have higher level spells.

So, I still believe that this spell has issues...