Dispelling the FLY Spell vs Dispelling the Wings of Flying

cptg1481

First Post
The fly spell says thet when it is dsipelled that it ends slowly not resulting in a drop of death for the flyer....ok I'll buy that...I don't like it, I think it's silly fo the spell to tapper off its function when others just poof out but that's not my real question. That little tidbit is in the rules...so I suck it up.


What about dipelling the wings of flying then...it's not really the fly spell that's in use its an item that simulates the wings of a creature. Here's my take 1st its a cloak...poof its a set of wings...then its dispelled and poof its a cloak again. I say you fall like a stone flapping the cloak furiously till you hit the ground.

However, alas my famous rules lawyer was able to produce the thing about the dispelling of the fly spell...so BLAH BLAH, I can't find anthing to support my side but rule 0, which is well lame to spring on someone mid fall when they have some evidence to support their claim however loosely

Anyone have an official ruling on dispelling a magic item and does dispelling a magic item that was constructed with the fly spell work exactly like dispelling the spell.

IMC the next time its dispelled one falls like a stone is the way I intend to deal with it...I think having it tapper off is silly and unbalanced. The other effects of spells just end...period when dispelled so should fly.

Any evidence to support this in the rules or errata would be cool and helpful but not necessary.

Thanks in advance..
 
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I can't find any clear rule clarification for it.

As a DM, I am assuming that when a magic item says "as xxx spell", that item is actually creating that spell's effect. So the ring of invisibility still need a standard action to activate and one activation let the ring create the effect of invisibility spell for 30 minuets. Wings of Flying create the pseudo-effect of fly spells when command word is said, and one activation lasts 50 minuets. Thus, if dispelled, it still fall slowly as per fly spell. This is just my opinion, though.
 

I personaly think that the rule about the magic slowly fading from the fly spell after a dispel magic is stupid. If the spell can be dispelled at all, then it is dispelled completely. If the wizard is using the fly spell and doesn't have a feather fall memorized as a backup, he deserves what he gets. I have no problem with the safty net being in the spell for when it expires normaly as a protection for the user, but a dispel is a dispel, period.

That said, under a dispel, I would have both the spell and the item described fall like a stone.

Just because a spell was used as the basis of magic item effect, does not mean it gets all the same effects and benefits of same. The invulnerability effect that can be added to armor grants a DR of 5/+1. However, it's prereq is Stoneskin which grants a 10/+5 but only for a limited duration and damage total. No reason that a "wings of flying" cloak should provide the same benefits as a fly spell.
 
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I rather like the tapering effect of the Fly spell. That said, the fact that an item partakes of a particular spell during creation does not necessarily mean that it has the same effects. Unless the wings say "as a Fly spell", which I believe they do not, or make any other provision for falling then when dispelled they become inert, and and bearer falls as per usual.

-Tiberius
 

Well, actually, Wings of Flying says "empower her to fly as with a fly spell". And second "fly" is in italic. In this case, fly spell is not just a prerequisite, but used to describe the effect of this magic item. This is different from invulnerability power for armor.
 

Shin Okada said:
Well, actually, Wings of Flying says "empower her to fly as with a fly spell". And second "fly" is in italic. In this case, fly spell is not just a prerequisite, but used to describe the effect of this magic item. This is different from invulnerability power for armor.

Hunh. I guess that's what I get for being too lazy to check the SRD. :) Looks like a dispelled Wings of Flying causes the floating effect.

-Tiberius
 

cptg1481 said:
IMC the next time its dispelled one falls like a stone is the way I intend to deal with it...I think having it tapper off is silly and unbalanced. The other effects of spells just end...period when dispelled so should fly.
Tell your players that.
Once the next gaming session
and aggainthe NEXT time they use their item.
Players should have a fairly knowledge on how their stuff works.
Especially if they have a spellcraft.
 

My Ruling

First, thank you all for your replies, I respect all of your opinions and respect that you have the right to rule however you wish at your table. This is what I’ll do at mine and why.

Second, I have reviewed the SRD, the PHB, DMG and the Errata on the Wizards site and have found enough support for my claim that dispelling the wings of flying does not work like dispelling the fly spell.

The three basic tenants of this ruling are.

1. While it may sound like semantics, the 1st sentence of the dispel spell description says….

The character can use dispel magic to 1) end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object; 2) to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item; 3) to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area; or 4) to counter another spellcaster’s spell. “

Further research into choice 2 of the above possibilities brings some light to the issue for me. The definition of SUPRESS (In the glossary of the PHB) is: (TO) Cause a magical effect to cease functioning without actually ending it. When the suppression ends the spell effect returns provided it has not expired in the mean time

This is vastly different than the definition in reference to a spell (choice 1 above), which says that in that case the dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired normally.

The description of the dispel spell (see below) uses the term suppress exclusively to refer to the effects of dispel with regards to magic items.

I will therefore rule in my game that even though one actually has to cast “the dispel magic spell” to hinder a magic items ability to function the item itself is not actually dispelled but only suppressed. (See the definition of suppress above)

Now this certainly will lead to some questions that may require further rulings in game. So, here is how I intend to handle some of the situations in my game.

A magic item that creates its effect in the manner of a spell, i.e. a wand can both be suppressed (if the item itself is targeted) making it useless and unresponsive to the command/activation or trigger word for the duration of the suppression and dispelled in that the spell effect generated by it will cease to function (as above) as if the duration had expired normally (when the target of the spell is an area).

Likewise a command word activated item with a limited amount of charges/uses per (X) (the effects of which have a limited duration and could therefore end normally) could be both be suppressed (if the item itself is targeted) making it useless and unresponsive to the command/activation or trigger word for the duration of the suppression and dispelled in that the spell effect generated by it will cease to function (as above) as if the duration had expired normally (when the target of the spell is an area or person).

A magic item that is always active can only be suppressed. Magic items are not affected by area dispels.

There will be exceptions to the above…

Which brings us to the Item in question that happens to be one of the exceptions to the rules (both my interpretations and the actual text in the PHB, DMG, Errata and FAQ).

So here is the definition of the Wings of Flying from the SRD:

Wings of Flying
When the wearer speaks the command word, this cloak turns into a pair of gigantic wings (bat or bird, 20-foot span) and empower the wearer to fly as with a fly spell anywhere wide enough to accommodate the wingspan.
Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, fly; Market Price: 22,000 gp; Weight: 2 lb.

The issues with this item are:

1.) It is command word activated but not limited in duration so the wings will neither just suddenly stop working “as if the spells duration ends normally” - since there is no duration, nor is it limited to a number of uses per day or other time span.
2.) The cloak turns into a big ole set of wings and allows the wearer to fly as with a fly spell anywhere wide enough to accommodate the wingspan. But what does “as with” mean.

Discussion:

While “allows the wearer to fly as with a fly spell” could be liberally interpreted to mean “exactly like” the “as with a fly spell” part is ambiguous enough IMHO to warrant DM interpretation. Also IMHO the phrase as it appears above simply refers to the speed and maneuverability ratings contained within the spell for ease of description.

While the “allows the wearer to fly as with a fly spell” phrase is compelling its intent in the context of this particular item is suspect. Unlike the spell that allows the character to fly without any visible means of support, this item is a cloak in its non-activated form and “wings” when activated. Therefore in good faith I have to rule that the “wings” and the flapping action of them are both necessary to sustain flight. So when suppressed the wings would immediately revert back to their non-activated form – a (according to the definition of a suppressed magic item in the spell description) simple, non-magical cloak for the duration of the suppression. This IMHO would result in the character falling like a stone towards the earth until the suppression ends.

This is the ruling I will make in my game…thanks for the input from all of those who responded. This works for me it seems fair and logical. If you like it use it if not feel free to do as you see fit.

The SRD Description of…

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 30-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The character can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) the ongoing effects of supernatural abilities as well as spells. Dispel magic affects spell-like effects just as it affects spells.
Note: The effects of spells with instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magic effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.
The character choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the spell. The character makes a dispel check against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. A dispel check is 1d20 +1 per caster level (maximum +10) against a DC of 11 + the spell’s caster level.
If the spellcaster targets an object or creature who is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), she makes a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.
If the object that the character targets is a magic item, the character makes a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If the character succeeds, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes non-magical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface is temporarily closed. Remember that a magic item’s physical properties are unchanged. Artifacts and creatures of demigod or higher status are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
The character automatically succeeds at the dispel check against any spell that the character cast.
Area Dispel: The spell affects everything within a 30-foot radius.
For each creature who is the target of one or more spells, the character makes a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that fails, the character makes dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until the character dispels one spell (which discharges the dispel so far as that target is concerned) or fail all the character's checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.
For each object that is the target of one or more spells, the character makes dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by area dispels.
For each ongoing area or effect spell centered within the dispel magic’s area, the character makes a dispel check to dispel the spell.
For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel, the character makes a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the area of the dispel magic.
If an object or creature who is the effect of an ongoing spell, such as a monster summoned by monster summoning, is in the area, the character makes a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.
The character may choose to automatically succeed at dispel checks against any spell that the character cast.
Counterspell: The spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work. The character must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.


And this one too…

Fly
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3, Travel 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The spell’s subject can fly with a speed of 90 feet (60 feet if the creature wears medium or heavy armor). The subject can fly up at half speed and descend at double speed. The flying subject’s maneuverability rating is good. Using the fly spell requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject drops 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also falls in this way if the fly spell is dispelled.
 

Centaur said:
I personaly think that the rule about the magic slowly fading from the fly spell after a dispel magic is stupid. If the spell can be dispelled at all, then it is dispelled completely. If the wizard is using the fly spell and doesn't have a feather fall memorized as a backup, he deserves what he gets. I have no problem with the safty net being in the spell for when it expires normaly as a protection for the user, but a dispel is a dispel, period.

Preach On!
 

Re: My Ruling

The definition of SUPRESS (In the glossary of the PHB) is: (TO) Cause a magical effect to cease functioning without actually ending it. When the suppression ends the spell effect returns provided it has not expired in the mean time.

That's right.

Someone with a Fly spell who is hit with a Dispel Magic or MDJ gently floats to the ground, because the spell is ended exactly as if the duration had expired.

Someone with a Fly spell who flies into an Antimagic Field goes "clonk" as they smack into the ground suddenly.

Fortunately, most AMFs are only 10 feet in radius, so you don't fall very far. But if you hit an antimagic cylinder of some sort while 200 feet up, it can be painful.

Suppressing Wings of Flying would work like suppressing a Fly spell in an AMF.

-Hyp.
 

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