Discuss the Combat Form feats (from PH II)

[Joshua Randall]

I'd like to have a discussion about the relative merits of the combat form feats from the Player's Handbook II. To facilitate that discussion, here is a brief rundown of what they do -- full details in the PH2, pages 86-88.

Combat Focus
Prereq: Wis 13
Benefit: 1st time you make a successful attack during an encounter, you gain your combat focus (CF). Can maintain it for 10 rds, +1 add'l rd per combat form feat you have other than this one. Can only gain CF once per encounter.
While maintaining CF, +2 Will. If you have 3+ combat form feats, +4 Will.

Combat Focus is the base feat. It and Wis 13 are pre-requisites for all of the others, with additional pre-reqs specified below.

Here are the other combat form feats:

Combat Stability
Prereq: BAB +3
Benefit: +4 to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, trip. [Note: this does not say "while maintaining CF".] If you have 3+ combat form feats, +8.

Combat Defense
Prereq: Dex 13, Dodge, BAB +6
Benefit: While maintaining CF, can change Dodge target as immed action. If you have 3+ combat form feats, add'l +1 dodge bonus to AC vs. Dodge target.

Combat Vigor
Prereq: BAB +9
Benefit: While maintaining CF, fast healing 2. Lose this benefit when CF ends. If you have 3+ combat form feats, fast healing 4.

Combat Awareness
Prereq: Blind-Fight, BAB +12
Benefit: While maintaining CF, learn current hp of each adjacent foe & ally. If you have 3+ combat form feats, blindsight 5 ft.

Combat Strike
Prereq: any two other combat form feats, BAB +15
Benefit: If you choose to end your CF as swift action, gain bonus on attacks/damage equal to total number of combat form feats for rest of your current turn. Immediately lose all benefits of combat form feats that affect you only while you are maintaining CF.

 

[Joshua Randall]

To get the discussion started, here are my thoughts.

Combat Focus itself is an okay feat. It's similar to Iron Will, except it only kicks in during combat, and only then after you successfully hit something. (So if you're jumped by a wizard who casts dominate person on you before you can react, Combat Focus is not going to help.)

10 rounds is a long time -- most combats will be over well before that duration is up. Interestingly, Combat Focus does not say it ends when the encounter does (unlike a barbarian's rage) -- so conceivably you could get in a fight, achieve your combat focus, fight for 4 rounds, rest for 2 rounds, open the door to the next room, and fight for several more rounds while still in combat focus.

Of the successor feats, I like some a lot better than others.

Combat Stability gives you a sizable bonus, especially once you get 3+ combat form feats. A +8 bonus is huge against similarly sized, similarly strong opponents. Also, it gives you a fighting chance to resist grapples at higher levels.

Unfortunately, Combat Stability is a purely defensive feat; you can't use the bonus when initiating bull rushes etc. As such I think it's merely an okay feat instead of good.

(As I noted in the first post, Combat Stability is the only combat form feat that does not require you to be in CF to use it. That could be an oversight, although the last sentence of Combat Strike makes me think it's not.)

Combat Defense -- I hardly ever use the Dodge feat as it's written. (I usually house-rule it to a flat +1 bonus, because designating your Dodge target every round is annoying and often forgotten.)

But, there are some fairly powerful Dodge-related feats that would definitely benefit from the ability to immediately change your Dodge target. Things like Melee Evasion from PH2 and Elusive Target from Complete Warrior, both of which let you avoid the attacks of the person you're dodging.

So I think this is a good, maybe great, feat, but only if you're already investing in other Dodge-related feats.

Combat Vigor is a solid feat. Fast healing 2 is a nice ability to get, especially at 9th level -- compare to barbarian's DR 2 which doesn't kick in until 10th level.

With 3+ combat form feats, fast healing 4 is comparable to the barbarian's 16th level DR 4 -- except you could conceivably have Combat Vigor and two other combat form feats (really, one other since you already have Combat Focus) as early as 9th level.

Overall I think Combat Vigor is a strong feat.

Combat Awareness starts out lame but gets much better with 3+ combat form feats. I suppose knowing the hp of everyone around you is mildly useful so that you don't waste special attacks on almost dead foes, but otherwise who cares?

Blindsight, however, is excellent. Negating invisibility, concealment, and displacement effects is a huge advantage at mid- to high-level.

I would be happy to take Combat Awareness at 12th level.

Combat Strike -- that's it? We wait 15 levels to get a feat that, at best, gives us +6 attack/damage once per encounter? And that's if you take every combat form feat, which is a significant investment.

For a capstone feat, Combat Strike is sorely disappointing. The fact that it does absolutely nothing until you blow your CF makes it horrible.

= = = = =

Please chime in with your own thoughts!

 

[Beckett]

Combat Focus is the gateway feat. An okay benefit, but nothing to shout about. Combat stabilty is very nice, particularly after spending time in a game where improved grab and swallow whole happened far too often (and I'm going have to look closely at the description and consider intent). Combat Vigor- who doesn't love fast healing?

The others I'm very meh on (and agree, Combat Strike gives too little for the investment; with so many strong feats in the book, maybe they needed to toss in a lame feat?). The three above, I'm quite happy with, although I'm afraid I'm going to try to build every character to them. My fighter cohort for the game mentioned above has the trio, but hasn't gotten much use out of them. In another game, my knight will be going after Vigor, with Stability coming up when I have a chance; if I'm calling violence down on myself, anything that extends my life is good.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

I like them. I think they pay off if you make the very significant investments they require (Wis 13, three or more feats).

 

[Mort]

I've been looking these over and I like the concept, but I'm not sure I like some of the mechanics.

First - you attain combat focus after your 1st succesfull attack in an encounter. That's just odd, and if you happen to get unlucky makes the entire feat chain useless.
Also what exactly is "an encounter?" if I have combat vigor, I'll be taking every opportunity to spar with party members for nonlethal combat (say aiming to trip) - thereby activating fast healing for 10 rounds at a time - why not?

And yes, combat strike as the ultimate feat is bretty underwelming. +6 (maximum) to hit and damage for 1 round at the cost of not being able to use any more combat form feats, could be good but seems a bit of a waste.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I think a good houserule for combat vigor would be that it only heals damage taken while in combat focus.
Otherwise as Mort said its too open to abuse.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I think this chain is largely useless, unless you're playing a grappler monk*.

Focus, Vigor, Stability. Once you stick a guy with a grapple, he'll never get out. And you'll slowly be healing as you put the squeeze on/hold him still for your rogue's sneak attacks.

-z

* grappler monks will make use of the Stability bonuses--the opponent will have a real hard time escaping your grapple once it's established. And Wis 13+ won't be wasted on a monk character. Unlike, say, barbarian or fighter.

 

[Legildur]

I think this chain is largely useless, unless you're playing a grappler monk*.

Oooohhhhh!! Excellent idea.... until you try and find enough feat slots to grab them. Monks are already short on feat slots. Still, these combat form feats could be interesting.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I guess I've been neglecting my own thread. But I do have some things to say.

First - you attain combat focus after your 1st succesfull attack in an encounter. That's just odd, and if you happen to get unlucky makes the entire feat chain useless.

This is a good point. There are few (no?) other feat chains that depend upon you succeeding at something before the feats' powers kick in. Still, a reasonably high level fighter ought to be able to hit someone with his first iterative attack, and that would trigger the entire chain of Combat Form feats.

Also what exactly is "an encounter?

I don't know. Let's ask the barbarian, who, after his rage runs out, is fatigued "for the duration of the current encounter". This is one of those sloppily written D&D rules that drives me crazy (and leads to endless debates in ths forum).

think this chain is largely useless, unless you're playing a grappler monk. Focus, Vigor, Stability. Once you stick a guy with a grapple, he'll never get out.

Hmm... I am not sure that is how Combat Stability is intended to work, although (again) the wording is sloppy. Here is the exact text:

You gain a +4 bonus on checks or rolls to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip attempts made against you.

What exactly are "checks or rolls to resist XXX attempts made against you"? That is not a defined terms in the rules as fas as I know. It seems to be trying to say that Combat Stability is only useful when you are on the receiving end of a bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, or trip attempt, not when you are the initiator.

However, what about counter-trip attempts? If someone tries to trip you and fails, can you use the Combat Stability bonus on your counter-trip attempt?

And grapple -- what a mess. Regardless of who starts the grapple, both creatures in the grapple can make opposed grapple checks on their turn to do various things (deal damage, pin, etc.). Does Combat Stability apply on those checks? Or does it only give you a bonus on the first, initial check to resist someone grappling you?

And Wis 13+ won't be wasted on a monk character. Unlike, say, barbarian or fighter.

I don't totally agree with this. Some barbarians may want to emphasize Survival and Listen, so they may already have Wis 13+. And, depeding upon how well you roll, a fighter could very well justify Wis 13+ for the Will save bonus alone.

Also, many paladins and rangers are going to want Wis 14 to be able to cast all their spells. Finally, let's not forget clerics, who not only have high wisdom, but are often in the thick of combat. About the only classes that really don't seem to be major beneficiaries of the Combat Form feats are rogues, bards, and arcane casters.

 

[Voadam]

Fast healing is a cool per encounter ability but as written I see somebody slapping somebody else with nonlethal damage to initiate the focus to heal up between fights.

Wis 13 prereq makes it not for my eldritch knight who was considering them.

I like the ultra stability defense against many attacks.

I like the blindfight part.

Would like to see a few more options along the zen war mind theme they seem to be going for with the wis prereq and combat trance flavor.