Demon types - where did they go?

[Olive]

Now, apart form some mucking around with OD&D and 1e when I was little, I'm basically a 3e gamer. I played soem 2e, but never read anything but the players hand book, so didn't keep track of changes to the game.

Now I was just looking through my 1e DMG, and in the back it has demons listed by type. As in type I, type II etc.

Of the non-unique ones theres Manes, succubus and 6 'types'. Type I is the vrock, type 2 are hezrou, and type III is glabrezu, all of which are familiar to us today. After that it gets a bit wierder.

Type IV includes the following: Bilwhr, Johud and Nalfeshnee.
Type V: Aishapra, Kevokulli, Marilith and Rehnaremme
Type VI: Alzoll, Balor, Errtu, Ndulu, Ter-soth and Wendonai

Now, I obviously know Nalfeshnee, Marilith and Balor but what are all these othes? And when did other new favourites like the babau come in?

 

[Alzrius]

Now, apart form some mucking around with OD&D and 1e when I was little, I'm basically a 3e gamer. I played soem 2e, but never read anything but the players hand book, so didn't keep track of changes to the game.

Now I was just looking through my 1e DMG, and in the back it has demons listed by type. As in type I, type II etc.

Of the non-unique ones theres Manes, succubus and 6 'types'. Type I is the vrock, type 2 are hezrou, and type III is glabrezu, all of which are familiar to us today. After that it gets a bit wierder.

Type IV includes the following: Bilwhr, Johud and Nalfeshnee.
Type V: Aishapra, Kevokulli, Marilith and Rehnaremme
Type VI: Alzoll, Balor, Errtu, Ndulu, Ter-soth and Wendonai

Now, I obviously know Nalfeshnee, Marilith and Balor but what are all these othes? And when did other new favourites like the babau come in?

This is something that tends to cause some confusion.

Back in OD&D/AD&D 1E, there were only six kinds of demons (things like manes and succubi notwithstanding). The way it worked were that the higher three, IIRC, had no inherent names for their species. If you summoned a Type IV demon, there was no name for that particular demon sub-caste except "Type IV".

Obviously, that didn't quite work, so they sidestepped the issue by giving us names of some specific demons in those sub-castes. If you summoned a Type VI demon, you could summon Balor, who was a specific Type VI demon. Or, you could summon Wendonai, who was a Type VI demon, same as Balor, but a different individual.

In 2E and onward, they realized that this didn't work. There were already more and more demons from older products, such as babaus, chasmes, dretches, rutterkins, etc (though they added them back in under the name "Tanar'ri"), and the Type sub-casting would have quickly become overcrowded (to say nothing of odd, since demons are supposed to be chaotic). As such, they abandoned the old Type system altogether, and instead took one of the individual proper names and assigned it to now be the name for that Type of demon. "Balor" was no longer a specific individual, but rather it was what Type VI demons called themselves.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

 

[Nightfall]

Yeah not to mention I consider most of the SL demons and devils to be like in their own classifications.

 

[grodog]

Alzrius' recollections are somewhat on target.

Per the MM1:

Some type IV demons have names, and these can be spoken with if the conjuring party knows the proper one to say; this will make it 90% certain the demon will listen to offers of great rewards for some small service. These demons are also fond of human flesh and blood.

and

Lower level demons greatly fear the domineering and cruel type V demons. All of these creatures have names which can be used to aid in negotiations. Demons of this type are likely to desire the sacrifice of strong warriors to them.

and

Each type VI demon has its own name. (Balor is a type VI demon of the largest size.) Six are known to exist.

So, Types I through III demons were basically generic and nameless; Type IV may or may not have names, while all types V and VI demons were named individuals. The names listed in the DMG were examples of named individual demons of the higher three types.

 

[Grazzt]

Grodog is most correct.

 

[Nightfall]

Grodog is most correct.

And Scott is da best evil Monster man I know.

 

[Olive]

Ah, that makes sense. So Nalfeshnee was a particular type IV. Gotcha.

 

[the Jester]

I always find it interesting to reflect that there were once only six balor/type VI demons around... heh.

Just think of all the balors now. Just think of balor toddlers with their vorpal rattles...

 

[Melan]

Yes, and only twelve Death Knights. I think it is not an idea without merit. Imagine: if you kill a Death Knight when there are only twelve, it suddenly becomes a significant accomplishment. You can always kill "a" Balor, but when you kill "the" Balor, there are only five of them left on the face of the world (one is banished for some 100 years, as higher type demons are not permanently destroyed unless you do it on their own plane).

 

[Numion]

Yes, and only twelve Death Knights. I think it is not an idea without merit. Imagine: if you kill a Death Knight when there are only twelve, it suddenly becomes a significant accomplishment. You can always kill "a" Balor, but when you kill "the" Balor, there are only five of them left on the face of the world (one is banished for some 100 years, as higher type demons are not permanently destroyed unless you do it on their own plane).

It has some merit yes, but then there would be more demon lords than there are Balors. IMO let's just keep the balors infinite, and if you really want to make a difference, kill a demon lord, there aren't many of those.