DEFLECT MELEE ATTACK (GENERAL) et al

[KiwiGlen]

The old D&D Master rules introduced a Weapon Mastery system. IMHO the best aspect of this system was the deflect special effect (melee and thrown weapon attacks) if you picked the right weapon and did the training.

I find it hard to believe that a Deflect Melee Attack feat was missed in the PHB 3.5, although there is a Deflect Arrow feat (including thrown weapons). Maybe it was playtested and found wanting. I haven't found any other reference to a Deflect Melee Attack feat, so feedback on the following is welcome:

DEFLECT MELEE ATTACK (GENERAL)
You can deflect incoming melee attacks with your selected melee weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Proficiency with selected melee weapon, Weapon Focus with selected melee weapon, Base attack bonus + 4

Benefit: Once per round when you would normally be hit with a melee attack, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You make a Reflex save to deflect the melee attack with all normal bonuses or penalties, including size of attacker. If you fail the save you may attempt to deflect other melee attacks that hit you during the round, until you succeed once. You must be aware of the attack and not flat footed. You must have your chosen melee weapon in hand. Attempting to deflect a melee attack doesn't count as an action.

Special: You can gain Deflect Melee Attack multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new melee weapon. The DM decides whether a melee weapon can be used to Deflect Melee Attacks. Suggested weapons include any type of sword, club, staff, halbard, pike or pole axe.

When combined with the Combat Expertise feat, if you are aware of the attack and have your chosen melee weapon in hand, you may attempt to deflect a melee attack even if flat footed.

A figher may select Deflect Melee Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38)

IMPROVED DEFLECT MELEE ATTACK (GENERAL)

You can wield your selected melee weapon with such skill that you can deflect multiple melee attacks.

Prerequisite: Dex 15, Deflect Melee Attack, Base attack bonus + 8

Benefit: This feat works like Deflect Melee Attack, except you may attempt to deflect a number of melee attacks equal to your Dexterity bonus.

Special: A figher may select Improved Deflect Melee Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38)

GREATER DEFLECT MELEE ATTACK (GENERAL)

You can wield your selected melee weapon with such skill that you can deflect multiple melee attacks

Prerequisite: Dex 19, Deflect Melee Attack, Improved Deflect Melee Attack, Base attack bonus + 12

Benefit: This feat works like Deflect Melee Attack, except that there is no limit to the number of melee attacks you may attempt to deflect.

Special: A figher may select Greater Deflect Melee Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38)

 

[Thondor]

My concern with having this so based on Dexterity is that well . . . it's so based on dexterity. The stat that already benefits AC and ranged attacks (and melee for those who spend the feat weapon finess, granted just for one kind of weapon but still)
And now we are completely basing another form of defense off Dexterity. Reflex high classes will love this. Suddenly no fighter can hit a rogue.

The concept of having some sort of parrying aspect to combat is wonderful. But it calls for a complete reworking of the current system not a few (well written feats) The problem I see with this is that it makes a very important stat even more important.

If it does get used I would suggest that either all classes use the base 'good save' for the block melee weapon save not modified by any stat but by weapon type (below.) Or give the warrior classes the 'good save' and the other classes the 'weak save'. ( the paladin would not gain his bonus to saves nor would magic items that increases saves, this is essentially a new "parry save" that is created using the same progression as a 'good save')

Weapon Parry Modifier
shield +4
dagger 0
shortsword +1
maces +1
Axes 0
Flails 0
Longsword +2
Staff +2
Polearms +2
Greatsword +1
Bastardsword +1

Their are my thoughts. I've never really been happy with the current just roll higher then this # and you hit. Especially the idea that you don't get better AC just for going up levels. We use HP and magic items instead of coming up with a logical system. After all if a first level character hit's you it should bother you.
I know Paladium has some sort of parry system but of course their armor works very differently.

 

[Joker]

Maybe you can make a Strength based version that uses a shield instead of a weapon.

Personally I would use an opposed attack role instead of a Reflex Save or get rid of the last two feats and make it into an epic feat. I don't really know, I'm just talking of the top of my head.

 

[Corlon]

could we make an exact replica of the deflect arrows feat, except for melee attacks?

Is the difference that so many more arrows can be fired in a round, that deflecting melee attacks is more powerful?

Perhaps we should just keep the first one. That way you need your chosen weapon, and a good reflex save, but if all works out you get the same benefit as deflect arrows, only with melee attacks.

 

[monboesen]

Even if limited to one attack per round it seems very good (or plain broken) for a good reflex character with spring attack. Such a character will be in general be able to trade one attack per round with one attack per round from the enemy. If they then get to make a reflex save to avoid that attack they are almost unhittable.

It gets even worse with a scout/rogue who can make that one attack really hurt and have great reflex saves.

I don't think it is a good idea, its assumed that you already are doing everything you can to avoid getting hit in melee combat. Fighting defensively, Dodge, Two weapon defense and feats like that are add-ons that represent parrying, dodging and so on.

To have that kind of active defense IMO you need to change the combat system completely.

If you want your players to tak a more active role in defense make them make defense rolls (1d20+AC bonus from armor, etc.) instead of using static AC.

 

[Thondor]

Unfortunatly I'm not sure how the current Deflect arrows works, However there is a very good reason that it can only stop one arrow per round. I know that unlike the current 3.5 in 3.0 the feat required a natural 20 for it to succeed (or so memory claims) If the current system of armor and HP isn't ajusted in some way the feats seem hugely imbalancing. ( And it should be noted that some things are just impossible to parry A huge creatures greatclub for example)
If we are really keen on implementing some sort of parry system then in addition to my above recomendations I would say:
All characters have a parry 'save' warriors higher then other's (including monks)
Reduce the base AC from 10 to 5.
Characters get as many parry's as they have attacks ( how would you deal with 2-weapon fighting?)
First role the opposed checks then if the attacker succeeds try to beat the AC
Sheilds no longer give the AC bonus but the highest parry bonus
If two-weapon's/weapon and shield are used only the highest bonus applies
After level 5 characters gain HP at every other level.

course the whole thing needs to be play tested. And anything that you can't parry suddenly becomes much more difficult to defeat. (how could you parry a dragon bite!)

 

[magic_gathering2001]

Problems

1 Reflex saves progress more slowly than attack roles for many classes

2 Completely defeats fighters

Suggestions

1 Have one for spells with attack roles also then for ballance

 

[General Barron]

A supplement to 2nd edition (Combat and Tactics) introduced a "block" option. Basically, you gave up one of your attacks, and you could attempt to block an enemy's attack on you.

I don't remember the exact way that it worked, but it basically was just an opposed roll. So in 3rd ed it would look something like this:

1) On your turn, you choose which/how many of your attacks you will use for blocking. Keep in mind that you are choosing WHICH attack you use for the block. So if you have an attack at 11 BaB AND one at 6 BaB, you would have to choose which one(s) to use for blocking. Block attempts with those attacks will be affected by this (see 3 below).

2) From then until your next turn, when an enemy attacks you, you may choose to use your block on that attack.*

3) You then make an attack roll against the enemy's modified attack roll against you. If you succeed, his attack is blocked and you take no damage. If you fail, you take damage normally.

4) The attack roll in (3) is modified by weapon size and creature-size differences between the attacker and defender, similar to the 'disarm' attack option. Basically, if you are blocking with a bigger weapon/size, then you get a +4 bonus to your roll; you get a -4 if you are using a smaller weapon/size, and there is no modifier if all things are equal. Certain weapons designed specifically for defense can also add a bonus to the block (parrying daggers or shields, for example).

5) Any "blocks" not used by your next turn are wasted.

*In 2nd edition, you had to decide if you would attempt to block BEFORE you learned whether he would hit you or not; so it was possible to "waste" your block on an attack that would miss anyway. It might be better to let the players know whether they would be hit or not.

So basically you can trade some of your attacks in order to block your opponent's attacks. This should be a standard combat option, NOT a feat, since it is a standard form of defense.

Feats could be used to add bonuses to this option, or to allow ripostes (counter-attacks) when you succeed in blocking by a large enough margin. You could also have shield-related feats that let the character perform 1 free block with their shield per round, at a penalty, but without incurring the standard 2-weapon-fighting penalties for the main weapon. There are lots of possibilities.

PS
Actually the comp game Neverwinter Nights has a system like this, only instead of using your attack roll you use a "parry" skill. But since all combat ability is already broken down into 1 number, I think sticking with BaB is better--although an expanded combat system using multiple ratings (attack, parry, missle, etc) might be an interesting (albiet more complex) idea.

 

[KiwiGlen]

Repost of feat

I wanted to avoid weapon-specific details because that makes things complicated. I had a look at the Netbook of Feats. While still getting my head around their Deflect Attack feat, their Improved Deflect Arrows had something interesting: giving up Attacks of Opportunity. See my comments below.

I've replaced the Reflex roll with an opposed melee attack roll, as per feedback. Again, see my comments.

DEFLECT MELEE ATTACK (GENERAL, FIGHTER)

You can deflect incoming melee attacks with your selected melee weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Proficiency with selected melee weapon, Weapon Focus with selected melee weapon, Base attack bonus + 4

Benefit: Once per round when you would normally be hit with a melee attack, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You make an opposed melee attack roll to deflect the melee attack. If you fail (roll lower than what your opponent rolled to hit you) you may attempt to deflect other melee attacks that hit you during the round, until you succeed once. You must be aware of the attack and not flat footed. You must have your chosen melee weapon in hand. Attempting to deflect a single melee attack doesn't count as an action.

Special: You can gain Deflect Melee Attack multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new melee weapon. The DM decides whether a melee weapon can be used to Deflect Melee Attacks. Suggested weapons include any type of sword, club, staff, halbard, pike or pole axe.

When combined with the Combat Expertise feat, if you are aware of the attack and have your chosen melee weapon in hand, you may attempt to deflect a melee attack even if flat footed.

A figher may select Deflect Melee Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38)

Comment: An opposed melee attack roll is used rather than a Reflex save because the former takes into account all relative combat modifiers, including AC, magic weapon use and size of opponents. If you're an armoured tank of a fighter it is going to be difficult to hit you - but if you are hit, it will be such a good hit that it will be difficult to deflect. On the other hand if you're a naked wizard with only your staff for protection you should be able to deflect the easy strikes…


IMPROVED DEFLECT MELEE ATTACK (GENERAL, FIGHTER)

You can wield your selected melee weapon with such skill that you can deflect multiple melee attacks.

Prerequisite: Dex 15, Deflect Melee Attack, Base attack bonus + 8

Benefit: This feat works like Deflect Melee Attack, except you may attempt to deflect a number of melee attacks equal to your Dexterity bonus. Each successful deflection beyond the first counts as one of your attacks of opportunity for the round.

Special: A figher may select Improved Deflect Melee Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38)

Comment: Do you deflect the bugbear and the ogre's attack and allow the hobgoblins to move past you (flanking your position and endangering your wounded companions beyond), or do you take it on the chin in the hope of cleaving the hobgoblins to the ground and getting in a few extra attacks on your tormentors? Such is the stuff of legends … and good roleplaying!


GREATER DEFLECT MELEE ATTACK (GENERAL, FIGHTER)

You can wield your selected melee weapon with such skill that you can deflect multiple melee attacks

Prerequisite: Dex 19, Deflect Melee Attack, Improved Deflect Melee Attack, Base attack bonus + 12

Benefit: This feat works like Deflect Melee Attack, except that there is no limit to the number of melee attacks you may attempt to deflect. Each successful deflection beyond the first counts as one of your attacks of opportunity for the round.

Special: A figher may select Greater Deflect Melee Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38)

 

[Thondor]

If your initiating a parry system it shouldn't be laid out as a feat, it needs to be something everyone can do. Feats should only improve the ability to parry.
Simply put these feats are waaaaayyyy overpowered. It's like going haha! now that I have this feat you all have a 20% chance of missing me! (slight exageration but not much) Giving someone a chance to deflect an attack that would have hit them every round is so powerful. Everyone would be crazy not to take this feat - any human can get it at first level. There has to be a penalty for this feat Combat Expertise has a penalty for gaining AC and that feat is weak compared to this. (oh, even if you keep your system exactly as it is, I think it would be foolish, you need to say if it comes at your highest attack modifier)

I've restated my new (untried) system in a new post titled Parrying Rules. Perhaps anyone interested in this should read that.