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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9070724" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>As [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] states, I don't think you can separate things in TTRPG (there may be a few degenerate cases) into 'game' vs 'narrative', except in pure classic DC play, and even there there tend to be episodes of ambiguity where its not clear which is which (IE when PCs are interacting with each other, or attempting to RP a parley with a monster or something, or even edge case adjudication of things like evasion). </p><p></p><p>In any RPG where narrative is truly important at all it will mix with more traditional game state considerations, like resources and tactical positioning, or any of the situations I mentioned above, plus other similar ones. In fact trad play evolved from classic play precisely as the clearly defined game state and play environment broke down into a more nuanced set of mixed game/narrative situations such that you can no longer say what is game state and what is related to story or plot anymore. In early trad play this often manifested as players picking goals for their characters which aligned with game-mechanical considerations (IE picking a favored enemy which was likely to maximize the beneficial use of that mechanism, or to focus on any situation that might bring undead into play as an opponent when the party is well-supplied with clerics and paladins). Over time more games, and now to a degree even D&D, have graduated to where literal narrative player goals can translate directly into strategies, such as character build, etc. These kinds of things expect at least some degree of agency to say 'yeah we can pick a path that leads to undead' or whatever. You can definitely call this 'ludic', but it is ALSO narrative! I can decide for purely aesthetic reasons, based on my conception of what should constitute the trajectory of play, that I want to take on undead, or that my character is divided in mind about the integrity of his patron, etc. These things can then be given shape within the mechanics of the game, in at least some systems. The two can inform each other. These types of games demand a lack of adherence to GM provided narrative, it just won't really work. This is the difference between narrativist/SN play and trad (even fairly sophisticated trad) play.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9070724, member: 82106"] As [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] states, I don't think you can separate things in TTRPG (there may be a few degenerate cases) into 'game' vs 'narrative', except in pure classic DC play, and even there there tend to be episodes of ambiguity where its not clear which is which (IE when PCs are interacting with each other, or attempting to RP a parley with a monster or something, or even edge case adjudication of things like evasion). In any RPG where narrative is truly important at all it will mix with more traditional game state considerations, like resources and tactical positioning, or any of the situations I mentioned above, plus other similar ones. In fact trad play evolved from classic play precisely as the clearly defined game state and play environment broke down into a more nuanced set of mixed game/narrative situations such that you can no longer say what is game state and what is related to story or plot anymore. In early trad play this often manifested as players picking goals for their characters which aligned with game-mechanical considerations (IE picking a favored enemy which was likely to maximize the beneficial use of that mechanism, or to focus on any situation that might bring undead into play as an opponent when the party is well-supplied with clerics and paladins). Over time more games, and now to a degree even D&D, have graduated to where literal narrative player goals can translate directly into strategies, such as character build, etc. These kinds of things expect at least some degree of agency to say 'yeah we can pick a path that leads to undead' or whatever. You can definitely call this 'ludic', but it is ALSO narrative! I can decide for purely aesthetic reasons, based on my conception of what should constitute the trajectory of play, that I want to take on undead, or that my character is divided in mind about the integrity of his patron, etc. These things can then be given shape within the mechanics of the game, in at least some systems. The two can inform each other. These types of games demand a lack of adherence to GM provided narrative, it just won't really work. This is the difference between narrativist/SN play and trad (even fairly sophisticated trad) play. [/QUOTE]
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