Darkness better than Deeper Darkness?

[pvandyck]

A guy casts a 9th-level heightened Darkness spell on his belt buckle and walks into an area covered by the light from 2 Daylight spells (cast, as normal, at 3rd level), cast on poles standing right next to each other. What happens?

By the rules, the "dimness" (20% concealment) caused by the Darkness spell can't be brightened by mundane light or spells of lower level. This would mean that the guy (and anthing else in the area of his Darkness) would have 20% concealment.


Now, the same guy casts a 9th-level heightened Deeper Darkness spell on his belt buckle and walks into the same area. What happens?

By the rules, where the dark and light overlap, each is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist. So, his darkness negates ONE of the Daylight spell's light, and the other Daylight spell provides just as much light as before.



Note that only Daylight and Deeper Darkness do this overlap-negation thing. Darkness simply works (it's higher level) or it doesn't (it's lower or equal level) - no overlap-negation going on.

pvandyck

 

[Wippit Guud]

Illusionist casts the illusion of a pitch-black globe, automatically disbelieves, and all who fail their will save can't see a thing

 

[DarkMaster]

A guy casts a 9th-level heightened Darkness spell on his belt buckle and walks into an area covered by the light from 2 Daylight spells (cast, as normal, at 3rd level), cast on poles standing right next to each other. What happens?

By the rules, the "dimness" (20% concealment) caused by the Darkness spell can't be brightened by mundane light or spells of lower level. This would mean that the guy (and anthing else in the area of his Darkness) would have 20% concealment.


Now, the same guy casts a 9th-level heightened Deeper Darkness spell on his belt buckle and walks into the same area. What happens?

By the rules, where the dark and light overlap, each is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist. So, his darkness negates ONE of the Daylight spell's light, and the other Daylight spell provides just as much light as before.



Note that only Daylight and Deeper Darkness do this overlap-negation thing. Darkness simply works (it's higher level) or it doesn't (it's lower or equal level) - no overlap-negation going on.

pvandyck

Deeper darkness from SRD

Deeper Darkness
Evocation [Darkness]
Level: Clr 3
Duration: One day/level (D)
This spell functions like darkness, except that the object radiates shadowy illumination in a 60-foot radius and the darkness lasts longer.
Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Deeper darkness counters and dispels any light spell of equal or lower level, including daylight and light.

Take note that daylight is a spell if you read it carefully at the end you will see the following

Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.

 

[pvandyck]

Deeper darkness from SRD

Deeper Darkness
Evocation [Darkness]
Level: Clr 3
Duration: One day/level (D)
This spell functions like darkness, except that the object radiates shadowy illumination in a 60-foot radius and the darkness lasts longer.
Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Deeper darkness counters and dispels any light spell of equal or lower level, including daylight and light.

Take note that daylight is a spell if you read it carefully at the end you will see the following

Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.

An already-in-operation Daylight does not automatically dispel or counter Deeper Darkness, if that's what you are getting at. Did you miss this line:

"Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect."

And you perhaps missed my point that the Deeper Darkness was heightened (increaseing it's effective level)?

pvandyck

 

[DarkMaster]

An already-in-operation Daylight does not automatically dispel or counter Deeper Darkness, if that's what you are getting at. Did you miss this line:

"Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect."

And you perhaps missed my point that the Deeper Darkness was heightened (increaseing it's effective level)?

pvandyck

again
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.

then Deeper Darkness is 9 and the two daylight are 3, results in the daylight spell not being able to counter.
any in front of darkness doesn't only mean 1st level "darkness", it means all darkness spell.

While I must admit that the description of the deeper darkness spell doesn't take into account the Heightned feat, it assumes they are at the same level

 

[pvandyck]

again
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.

then Deeper Darkness is 9 and the two daylight are 3, results in the daylight spell not being able to counter.
any in front of darkness doesn't only mean 1st level "darkness", it means all darkness spell.

While I must admit that the description of the deeper darkness spell doesn't take into account the Heightned feat, it assumes they are at the same level

I guess I'm just not clear on what you are trying to say. You are saying that Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as Darkness. I'm saying that if you heighten a 2nd level Darkness spell (3.5 rules, here) to 9th level. It is no longer "equal or lower" than a Daylight spell cast at the normal, un-heighteded 3rd level.

Also, simply having a Daylight spell cast on my sword and walking around a dungeon will not cause other Darkness spells that are already in operation to be dispelled.

The line "Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness." means that you can use the Daylight spell when countering another caster's spell during his/her casting (see "countering spells") or to dispel without using Dispel Magic (which can fail).

pvandyck

 

[DarkMaster]

I guess I'm just not clear on what you are trying to say. You are saying that Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as Darkness. I'm saying that if you heighten a 2nd level Darkness spell (3.5 rules, here) to 9th level. It is no longer "equal or lower" than a Daylight spell cast at the normal, un-heighteded 3rd level.

Also, simply having a Daylight spell cast on my sword and walking around a dungeon will not cause other Darkness spells that are already in operation to be dispelled.

The line "Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness." means that you can use the Daylight spell when countering another caster's spell during his/her casting (see "countering spells") or to dispel without using Dispel Magic (which can fail).

pvandyck

Ok I see what you mean if you walk into a daylight spell with a 9th level darkness you will give 20% concelement, and deeper darkness will have no effect. I would still not say that 9th level darkness is more powerfull since it only provide 20% concelement as the other one puts the area pitch black.

Different usage for the two I guess

 

[pvandyck]

Ok I see what you mean if you walk into a daylight spell with a 9th level darkness you will give 20% concelement, and deeper darkness will have no effect. I would still not say that 9th level darkness is more powerfull since it only provide 20% concelement as the other one puts the area pitch black.

Different usage for the two I guess

But in the second case, the area isn't pick black. The Deeper Darkness will temporarily overlap/negate with ONE of the Daylight spells. The other Daylight spell is still in operation.

Deeper Darkness is the same 20% concealment as Darkness

Deeper Darkness
Evocation [Darkness]
Level: Clr 3 Duration: One day/level (D)
This spell functions like darkness, except that the object radiates shadowy illumination in a 60-foot radius and the darkness lasts longer.
Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Deeper darkness counters and dispels any light spell of equal or lower level, including daylight and light.


pvandyck

 

[DarkMaster]

But in the second case, the area isn't pick black. The Deeper Darkness will temporarily overlap/negate with ONE of the Daylight spells. The other Daylight spell is still in operation.

Deeper Darkness is the same 20% concealment as Darkness

Deeper Darkness
Evocation [Darkness]
Level: Clr 3 Duration: One day/level (D)
This spell functions like darkness, except that the object radiates shadowy illumination in a 60-foot radius and the darkness lasts longer.
Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Deeper darkness counters and dispels any light spell of equal or lower level, including daylight and light.


pvandyck

Yes right forgot about deeper being also 20% concelement. I think that the designer intended Deeper darkness to work exactly as darkness but with more range and duration explaining the higher level. That is how I would treat it in my campaign.

 

[FireLance]

I've always interpreted the interaction between [Light] and [Darkness] spells to be as follows:

Counter: A [Light] or [Darkness] spell can be used with the Counterspell action to automatically negate a spell of the opposite type of the same or lower level. This requires both spells to be cast in the same round.

Dispel: A [Light] or [Darkness] spell can be used to end the duration of a spell of the opposite type of the same level or lower, in a manner similar to a targeted dispel magic. The decision to use the spell to dispel an existing spell must be made when it is cast.

Temporary Negation: Any number of pre-cast [Light] and [Darkness] spells create an area where prevailing light conditions exist. This is based on the general rule that spells with the same effect do not stack. Hence, it does not matter whether there are multiple [Darkness] spells or a Heightened [Light] spell - the magical effects all cancel out.

Example: A party with a wizard and a druid who have prepared daylight spells is underground when it encounters a drow cleric who has prepared a darkness spell.

The party's light source is a torch with light cast on it. The drow cleric attempts to cast darkness. If he succeeds, the effects of the two spells cancel each other out and the prevailing light conditions would apply (darkness, since this is underground). Fortunately, the party wizard manages to counterspell the darkness with his daylight before it is even cast, and the party still has light.

The drow cleric then flees to an room under the effect of a pre-cast deeper darkness spell. The party pursues, and the overlapping effects of the light and deeper darkness spells leave them in darkness. The druid then casts his daylight spell to dispel the deeper darkness and the party has light again. If he had only cast it as normal, the party would still be in darkness as the deeper darkness would have negated the effect of both the daylight and light spells.