Dark Sun: What System would you use?

[Wik]

It's long been known that, after our current 4e game ends, we were going to run a Dark Sun campaign, using 4e rules. However, we've taken a bit of a short break from 4e lately, to play a bit of BECMI... and I've realized that I love the old school rules. Namely, I love that PCs are simple, and that the GM has a bit more leeway in interpreting things. I'm also a big fan of loose rules, because we get to tinker and fill in the details ourselves.

Other players agree with me - and everyone knows that I've been having more fun with BECMI than other editions. While some players do prefer 4th, I think they're not so committed to the edition that they would object if we decided to run a game I found more enjoyable. After all, if the GM is having fun, that will make a more enjoyable game, right?

So, we're looking at systems to run Dark Sun with. I'm not afraid to tinker with the setting to fit the rules better, and the group is more than willing to play around with the rules a bit to better reflect the setting. We've talked about various games we were thinking of using, which I'll outline below.

Basically, we want a game that is fairly easy to run, and easy to learn. We want a game that plays fast, doesn't have long combats, and doesn't need minis to run. I'd prefer a game with broad characters, rather than hyper specific characters. I also want a game where there is relatively little "character building" at character creation. It should be able to express a classic Dark Sun vibe - violent, gritty, and survival-based.

We've talked, and here are the options we've considered, along with some of the changes we would make:

Second Edition D&D: has the bonus that Dark Sun was originally written for it. We'd change the THAC0 rules and Saving Throws to mimic those in 3rd edition. We'd rewrite the skills system, as well - probably mixing the background skills system from Earthdawn and the skill system from 3e. Castles and Crusades is another option in this vein.

E6: Or, more specifically, P6 - Pathfinder using the E6 convention (no levelling past level 6, can spend XP to unlock things, etc). It'd be using only one core book, so there'd be little in the way of splats. We'd need to find a way to get rid of magic items. It'd also be using some of the d20 UA rules (reserve points and Armour as DR, probably).

Shadowrun/White Wolf: Essentially, taking the Shadowrun and/or White Wolf rules, and rewriting them for a Fantasy game. We'd basically be writing our own game, based around a number of successes/target number mechanic. It does sound like it'd be fun, although probably a lot of work. I do like FASA games, though.

Iron Heroes: Basically, run Iron Heroes. Maybe tweak the game a bit, to reflect Dark Sun. But really, Iron Heroes and Dark Sun are a pretty close thematic fit. The Arcanist class would have to be reworked, of course. My brother really likes this idea, although I'm on the fence - as a 3e style game, there's still a potential for "build abuse", which I hate.

Savage Worlds: I like SW, but I'm not sure if it'd be perfect for Dark Sun. Namely, the small number of skills means that most players would make sure to max out their fighting. Further, I'm not sure Dark Sun is really a "pulp" style of game. However, the quick nature of the game is a plus, and I like how it can run large fights surprisingly quickly.

Some other Option: Recommended by you, the reader. 4e is not an option. Neither is a build-heavy game like HERO. We've also ruled out d6, even though we love the system, because it is not a good fit for Dark Sun. We want a system that can handle combats and exploration.

 

[MerricB]

I tend towards running it with the original 2E rules, but there's no disputing that I prefer D&D towards most other RPGs in the fantasy vein.

I'd avoid Iron Heroes, as I had horrible experiences with that game during our brief campaign using the rules, due to horrible balance between character classes. The revision may have fixed this, but I'm doubtful. Besides, it sort of rather breaks your "PCs are simple" guideline, because they certainly aren't!

Dark Sun isn't pulp? That's a surprise to me, mainly because I've always seen it as a pulp-y sort of setting, one step removed from the ERB Barsoom books. The way I'd run it is very much as a setting for exciting adventures amongst the decaying cultures (see Llana of Gathol and Thuvia, Maid of Mars in particular). I don't see it as a doom-laden setting (such as the Ravenloft setting), but rather as a dangerous setting, if you get the distinction I'm trying to make.

Heh. Which version of Shadowrun?

So, while I'd make my first choice 2E, perhaps a better game would be achieved with Savage Worlds.

Probably a really important question to ask yourself is this: What story am I going to run? That will give you a better clue as to the system.

Cheers!

 

[Wik]

Dark Sun isn't pulp? That's a surprise to me, mainly because I've always seen it as a pulp-y sort of setting, one step removed from the ERB Barsoom books.

I see Dark Sun as more like the Conan stories, or the old Zothique short stories. Dark, gritty, but tales of heroes. Savage Worlds could work for that, but I see SW as a game with a lot of chase scenes, crazy stunts, and the like.

When I think of Dark Sun, I think of the scene in Conan The Barbarian where he sets up a bunch of traps and fights off wave after wave of attackers. Or earlier in the movie, when he's wounded and running from wolves and hides in a dungeon.

Really, any scene from that movie is pretty much how I've always seen Dark Sun.

Heh. Which version of Shadowrun?

I like the 4e Shadowrun Rules, myself. But it'd be something written along those lines, not a direct clone.

Probably a really important question to ask yourself is this: What story am I going to run? That will give you a better clue as to the system.

Well, it'll have multiple PCs. It'll be sandboxy. It will have an equal mix of City and Wilderness exploration. I expect a decent amount of PC death. PCs will have the initiative in the story - they do what they're interested in. There will be few magic items, and a lot of scavenging for gear and worrying about little things (the old 2e bit about trying to put together a full suit of armour).

 

[MerricB]

It'll be sandboxy. It will have an equal mix of City and Wilderness exploration.

Heh. Putting those two together doesn't quite compute. You're assuming that players in a sandbox will go equally to City and Wilderness?

I just thought of a reason why I wouldn't use 2E: I detest the psionic rules in that set! Given that Dark Sun rather likes psionics, it's something of a drawback...

I recently played in a Dark Sun game (4E), where the initial set-up I created for my character was that his wife had been killed and his children kidnapped. As it turned out, it became the dominant story of that game, where the group mostly spent their time chasing after the kidnapper. (Sadly, the game didn't end properly as one player decided to sabotage the game in its final session).

I bring that up because my character's backstory and goals really turned the campaign from possibly a sandbox campaign into a strong story-based game (and gave the novice DM running it a lot of elements to work with).

If I were running a more sandbox game, I'd have a few initial opportunities (hooks) for the PCs: this merchant is hiring for a caravan, there's the possibility of finding a lost magical gem, etc. The scale of those initial possibilities - and the possible adventures I wanted to work up to - would give me clues as to what system I went with.

As it stands, I prefer simpler systems for sandbox-like play, as they interfere less with my improvising. (3E would be out due to the horrible nature of its monster/NPC creation, especially at higher levels).

The scope of the campaign should help you decide what system to use: What's the most exciting adventure the PCs could undertake?

Cheers!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I love the original DarkSun, but- given the constraints set in the OP- I'd probably use M&M with the W&W rules (because it's closest to HERO in flexibility). That would let me design PCs and tell stories that the original wouldn't handle as well.

 

[Wik]

Heh. Putting those two together doesn't quite compute. You're assuming that players in a sandbox will go equally to City and Wilderness?

Dark Sun is naturally designed to have both. You can't survive without supplies, and you get those supplies in the city. While in the city, you pick up adventures. Often, those adventures lead into the wilderness...

I just thought of a reason why I wouldn't use 2E: I detest the psionic rules in that set! Given that Dark Sun rather likes psionics, it's something of a drawback...

Agreed. Which is why most of my Dark Sun campaigns don't have psionics. I'm not a fan of them, at all. I've run it without them entirely. I'm actually thinking of canning everything but arcane magic - if I'm playing with the setting, having all magic come from one place could be a very good idea.

the scope of the campaign should help you decide what system to use: What's the most exciting adventure the PCs could undertake?

Cheers!

Easy - small scale changes. PCs don't save cities - they save neighbourhoods. They don't kill the Dragon - they help evacuate a village from his path. They don't introduce a greening process to save the world - they stop a defiler from getting to a secluded valley. They don't find a hidden valley of wondrous magical power - they find a buried ruin with a secluded slave tribe trying to eke out a living.

Heroes and Villains are not recognizeable instantly as such. PCs can own slaves, and selfish nobles can be allies. It's a world where nothing is black and white, and one that will be heavily influenced by real world history, and what that always entails.

I love the original DarkSun, but- given the constraints set in the OP- I'd probably use M&M with the W&W rules (because it's closest to HERO in flexibility). That would let me design PCs and tell stories that the original wouldn't handle as well.

Aren't both of those rather "build heavy" in character terms?

I don't want a game where the two build-focused players of mine make mechanically-oriented characters, because this always forces the non-mechanically oriented characters to play a game of keep up and not necessarily play the character they find appealing.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I think P6 sounds like fun and with the level restrictions and using core rules only, you will find all classes nicely balanced - if a little crunchier than what you're aiming at.

If you really wanted to play around with some rules then Shadowrun fantasy sounds like a heap of fun (if also a heap of work). Whichever way I'm sure you guys will have a blast.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[amerigoV]

I see Dark Sun as more like the Conan stories, or the old Zothique short stories. Dark, gritty, but tales of heroes. Savage Worlds could work for that, but I see SW as a game with a lot of chase scenes, crazy stunts, and the like.

... Or earlier in the movie, when he's wounded and running from wolves and hides in a dungeon.

Chase scene!!!

Someone on Pinnacles boards did a conversion - I have not looked at it closely but here it is:

savagesun [licensed for non-commercial use only] / FrontPage

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I'd use BRP or MGRQII for a Dark Sun game.

(Oh, and FWIW, I see Dark Sun as being very much a pulp-style setting -- almost a "sword & planet" setting.)

 

[Obryn]

Honestly, I think the 4e treatment is pretty stellar. However, there's a lot to be said for running a setting in its original system. I'd go with straight 2e.

I'd also tend to avoid any explicit skill systems, but that's all IMO.

-O