Dancing weapons

[Arabesu]

how exactly does the dancing weapon property work: (my guesses follow each question).

1) Does the loosed Weapon get iterative attacks or Full attack actions?

Yes, if the weilder's BAB permits extra attack then it does because it uses the wielder's BAB.

2) Does the weapon benifit from the haste spell?

No, because haste is "target creature." Perhaps it could take an extra attack if it also had teh Speed weapon property (i know a +7 combined enhancement, but the character in question has an artificer, thus with infusions...)

3) Does the weapon get extra dice if the wielder would such as from skirmish or sneak attack.

Yes, but only if the weilder would get said dice under the current situation.

4) Can the weapon cleave?

Yes. It specifically says no AOO but says nothing about cleave.

Any other issues with Dancing?

I'm thinking about a character who uses a warclaw (a fancy spiked gauntlet) and a rapier. First the rapier is loosed, and while it fights the PC attacks allongside with the warclaw. when the 4 rounds are up he grabs the sword and weilds it for 4 rounds, rinse repeat.

If the sword can take full attacks, then it nearly doubles the number of attacks for a round. If it can't take full attacks, then it is worthless, worse than a speed weapon.

 

[kreynolds]

1) Does the loosed Weapon get iterative attacks or Full attack actions?

"On" full attack actions, yes.
EDIT: Why the dancing weapon wouldn't take a full attack action, I don't know. I assume it always would, when advantageous to do so.

2) and 3) and 4)

I'm not 100% certain, but I don't believe so. I say this because the FAQ says...

When releasing a dancing weapon (Dungeon Master’s
Guide, 224), what attack modifier does it use? Does it attack
on the round it is released?
The dancing weapon uses its owner’s base attack bonus and
its enhancement bonus, but it doesn’t get any of its owner’s
other attack modifiers (such as his Strength modifier, Weapon
Focus, and so on).
The dancing weapon makes a full attack (with multiple
attacks if the owner’s base attack bonus is +6 or higher) each
round, starting on the round it is released.

I'm not certain if the restirction in italics is meant to apply only to attack roll modifiers, or other attack actions as well (such as power attack, cleave, sneak attack, etc). I'm definately interested in other's thoughts.

 

[Arabesu]

Wow so the no modifiers, str or dex if finesse, really limits the utility of this ability. Particularly since the lack of power attack, str or sneak to damage means that this ability is absolutely worthless against damage reduction.

On the flipside, it seems like penalties don't apply either. Nobody in the party proficient with that spiked chain you just found? It don't matter just have the artificer put dancing on it and hand it to the fighter....or whomever else has a big BAB.

 

[robberbaron]

Why would you think that a flying sword wielding itself would get a STR bonus to hit or damage?

A Dancing weapon could be pretty nifty:
give you a flank (handy for a rogue), keep a regenerating creature from regenerating, defend a doorway, loads of things.

Oh yeah, Artificers are great. I really enjoyed playing one.
Most DR is vs. magic or a specific material, anyway so make a selection of basic weapons in different materials and make them dance as required. Sounds like a plan to me.

 

[kreynolds]

Oh yes, I love dancing weapons. Animated shields are great too. Having both can be truly handy.

 

[Nail]

Oh yes, I love dancing weapons. Animated shields are great too. Having both can be truly handy.

...or hand-less, as the case may be.

 

[Arabesu]

nifty, but worth +4?

OK, I'll grant you its nifty. But I don't understand why it is worthit if NO conditional modifiers to damage can apply. but first some comments.

It does not help the weilder flank. It can't leave the weilder's square, so it is absolutely unable to move around and provide flanking. It can't block doorways unless the wielder is also blocking the doorway. It can't move into an area the wielder can't so it can't be sent out and attack someone over there on the other side of that moat of lava.

Secondly, as to the WHY WOULD STR APPLY to damage comment, why does the armor check penalty of an animated shield apply to a wielder's skills. Why does the weilder's BAB apply. Obviously some amount of control/skill/experience is in play or else BAB wouldn't apply. So why wouldn't abilities also modify? Perhaps not strength, since strength is application of leverage, but why wouldn't dex i.e. aiming for the gap in the armor?

Now ok, several people have suggested that freeing up a hand is the advantage. Fine, I get that, but is that really worth it. Take a fighter 20th. Each hit they normally do does something like 30 to 45 points of damage depending up situations/optimizations etc. A dancing weapon does on average 7 + magic (1 to 5) per hit for greatsword. So 8 to 12 damage per hit. Thus, its 32 to 48 extra points of extra damage for the round assuming NO DAMAGE reduction. That is silly weak by then. On the way up to twentieth, there are so many better things to do with the +4 than dancing. Like wounding and collision.

so it seems to me that the only reason to have dancing is to free up the hands and actions for casting spells. This just seems cheesy. So dancing is good for full BAB gish and Palladins who might want to cast spells in addition to making attacks. For real fighters and barbarians it just seems week.

 

[Arabesu]

One other thing, without Str or Dex or Int added to the attack roll, only the first hit is likely to ever hit in a balanced encounter. Thus, for your +4 you really only ever get an additional 8 to 12 (for +9 equivelent weapon) extra damage. Perhaps twice that if your second attack hits. Good luck with that.

 

[robberbaron]

If you're that bent about it just house rule as you see fit.

I agree that it isn't really worth much (and that I hadn't remembered the rules correctly) in a higher level game, but still potentially useful. And VERY powerful in a lower level game, where the extra attack or two could make a big difference.

Overall, I think I'd be happy to give it +2.

Of course, back in 1e, a Dancing Sword was brilliant. Ah, those were the days..... (drifts off in a fog of nostalgia)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, back in 1e, a Dancing Sword was brilliant. Ah, those were the days..... (drifts off in a fog of nostalgia)

First magic item I ever acquired in D&D was a dancing sword!

The party (of 13!) was fighting a tough fighter, when all of a sudden his sword leapt up and started fighting us by itself, while he drew another weapon. Yikes!

Having only 1hp I'd pretty much kept out of the fighting and stuck to doing thievey things; the fighter was eventually killed (he was back holding the sword at that time) and the rest of the party went into the room attracted by the glittering gold.

So I asked the DM secretly whether anyone was looking at me or the body, and they weren't, so I asked whether I could replace his magic longsword with my ordinary longsword, and I could... and the rest was history (being about 1976 it was probably ancient history!)

Cheers