D&D 5E Creating NPC Villains with class levels and/or features

[dpkress2]

I'm sure this has been discussed. Forgive me.

The doesn't seem to be a decent resource for building class-based NPC Villains to use as "monsters". For example where do I find or how do I build a 18th Level Necromancer to use as a "Boss" Monster. What about a 16th level Blackguard?

I have DM'ed a lot, but I cant seem to find good information on this. The DM's guide has the steps involved for building new monsters (which I assume is the tool that should be used), but the information on certain class features and how they effect challenge ratings is a little vague. For example: Spellcasting

On page 279 in the DM's Guide it states that spellcasting is a special trait and the effects of the spells should be considered when determining the challenge rating, but it does not give an objective way to do that. It does say to refer to the Monster Manual. Page 10 of the Monster Manual describes the rules for "Monsters" with spellcasting, but again, no good info and how to build enemies with spellcasting or how their spell casting effects their CR. This goes for other class features, not just spell-casting.

Right now my plan is to just build the villainous NPC's use the PC building Method with a standard array, but there are no rules to determine a PC's CR. I've have also read a lot online that using this method can be horribly unbalanced and unpredictable.

What method do DM's use to build "monsters" such as:

12th level Half-orc Cleric of Bane?
15th level Elven Assassin?
20th level Human Necromancer?
10th level Dwarven Blackguard?
Etc,
Etc,
Etc.

Am I missing something? How do DM's build these "monsters" and come up with a decent challenge rating?
Is there plans to release some kind of "Codex of NPC Villians" that could be used as a baseline?
I would also be interested in hear how others build Monsters with Class levels and determine their CR's. For example:
A 5th level Yuan-Ti Monk?
a 10th Level Minotaur Barbarian?
a 14th Mind-flayer Bard?
ETC,
ETC,
ETC.

Can anyone point me in a good direction? Feel free to tell me how dumb I am for not knowing this.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Usually if I need an NPC that looks like a PC, I use the NPCs in the back of the Monster Manual and do various tweaks as needed (like change out spell arrays, or give it an additional class feature like Action Surge). If I want an NPC built using PC rules, I just build it. Then if needing to have a CR is really necessary, I look at the NPCs in the Monster Manual and find the one that most closely resembles it based upon function and the number of hit dice it has.

But in truth, I don't bother with DCs of NPCs in the least.

To give an enemy a DC means you are assuming it is a target for your PCs to kill, and you're trying to figure out just "how hard" a fight against it is going to be. However... when it comes to NPCs, I personally do not create/use them for the presumption they are nothing but another creature for the PCs to kill. That they are just "fodder" for the party. In fact, these NPCs are a part of the story. They are who they are. So I don't give a rat's ass what their "DC" is, because they are not there to be a target. They are there because they are what is right for the story. And thus... if the NPC is ostensibly the equivalent to like a CR18 creature, a CR way above what the PCs would normally want to go after... and the PCs attack that NPC anyway... well, too bad for them!

Case in point: I'm running Curse of Strahd for two groups right now. And I'm using the "buffed Strahd" statblock that someone made for him (either here or perhaps the UA subreddit, I can't remember.) It's a DC 17 statblock, but I don't even care. Strahd is here and is as powerful as he needs to be for the story. If either of my groups attack him now (while they are all around 4th level)... oh well! Too bad! That's what happens sometimes! Sometimes you do something stupid and try and attack a much more powerful creature and you pay the price. And it's not my job as the DM to protect you from doing that stupid thing by only throwing creature in your way that you can handle.

So to me, CR is mainly worthless... especially when it comes to NPCs as part of the campaign's story. Creatures and NPCs are what they are and I don't care how powerful they are in comparison to the party. Because whether or not you attack them is up to you and you have to faces the consequences.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I have a handful of NPC villains that are very important to my campaign. For them, I straight up created them using the PC creation rules. Seemed the safest way to make them and gauge their ability compared to the PCs. The books even suggest doing this, so I think that's the safest way to do it.

You could also do what [MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION] suggests and use statblocks like the archmage as a starting point and tweaking as needed, but once you've started doing that, you may as well just go with PC creation. And I agree about CR, especially for these kinds of NPCs...I think it's something that too much attention is given to.

 

[dpkress2]

I am actually referring to the NPC's that the party are most definitely going to fight. Maybe "NPC" isn't the right word, that's why I also refer to them as "monsters."
I'm trying to convert a very urban heavy campaign from Pathfinder and a lot of my high level baddies are standard races and class based. As I said 10-20th level clerics, wizards, rogues, and fighters, etc.

There are a few good starting points in the back of the monster manual but the options are pretty limited and generally low leveled. I wouldn't know where to start on how to scale them up to an appropriately challenging encounter. For example I am trying to convert a level 10 priest and I am at a loss on how to do this without creating a "monster" that will simply crush or be crushed by my party.

 

[CapnZapp]

The doesn't seem to be a decent resource for building class-based NPC Villains to use as "monsters". For example where do I find or how do I build a 18th Level Necromancer to use as a "Boss" Monster. What about a 16th level Blackguard?

I have DM'ed a lot, but I cant seem to find good information on this.

There is no good information on this.

Actual building advice that is. What there is, is powerful Necromancers and Blackguards, thanks to Volo's

The NPC section in VGtM might not be large, but it is definitely a step in the right direction since it focuses on mid- to high level humanoids with "class levels".

The archmage in the MM is complemented by an archdruid. There are one wizard of every school. And so on.

The cruicial question, however, is: will these NPCs see use in future official products? Otherwise it's a bit of bummer (to say the least).

 

[dpkress2]

I actually haven't looked through Volo's yet. That is a good suggestion.

I'm really surprised they haven't included more of these. Like I said a codex of NPC's that has a sample of every class at every level would be an excellent product/supplement.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I actually haven't looked through Volo's yet. That is a good suggestion.

I'm really surprised they haven't included more of these. Like I said a codex of NPC's that has a sample of every class at every level would be an excellent product/supplement.

There are several products on DMs Guild that include more NPC startblocks, especially filling in the gaps around the statblocks in the back of the MM. I picked up the NPC Foe Expansion by Scott Metzger that fills in a lot of those gaps. High-level assassins, the Archpriest and Archdruid, better fighters, high-level cultists, additional thugs etc. And you can pick them up for PWYW or throw them a couple bucks.

If you wanted more options but wanted to also save your time and energy, the DMs Guild is the way to go.

 

[SkidAce]

Usually if I need an NPC that looks like a PC, I use the NPCs in the back of the Monster Manual and do various tweaks as needed (like change out spell arrays, or give it an additional class feature like Action Surge). If I want an NPC built using PC rules, I just build it. Then if needing to have a CR is really necessary, I look at the NPCs in the Monster Manual and find the one that most closely resembles it based upon function and the number of hit dice it has.

But in truth, I don't bother with DCs of NPCs in the least.

To give an enemy a DC means you are assuming it is a target for your PCs to kill, and you're trying to figure out just "how hard" a fight against it is going to be. However... when it comes to NPCs, I personally do not create/use them for the presumption they are nothing but another creature for the PCs to kill. That they are just "fodder" for the party. In fact, these NPCs are a part of the story. They are who they are. So I don't give a rat's ass what their "DC" is, because they are not there to be a target. They are there because they are what is right for the story. And thus... if the NPC is ostensibly the equivalent to like a CR18 creature, a CR way above what the PCs would normally want to go after... and the PCs attack that NPC anyway... well, too bad for them!

Case in point: I'm running Curse of Strahd for two groups right now. And I'm using the "buffed Strahd" statblock that someone made for him (either here or perhaps the UA subreddit, I can't remember.) It's a DC 17 statblock, but I don't even care. Strahd is here and is as powerful as he needs to be for the story. If either of my groups attack him now (while they are all around 4th level)... oh well! Too bad! That's what happens sometimes! Sometimes you do something stupid and try and attack a much more powerful creature and you pay the price. And it's not my job as the DM to protect you from doing that stupid thing by only throwing creature in your way that you can handle.

So to me, CR is mainly worthless... especially when it comes to NPCs as part of the campaign's story. Creatures and NPCs are what they are and I don't care how powerful they are in comparison to the party. Because whether or not you attack them is up to you and you have to faces the consequences.

Batting a thousand today....kudos.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

I have a handful of NPC villains that are very important to my campaign. For them, I straight up created them using the PC creation rules. Seemed the safest way to make them and gauge their ability compared to the PCs. The books even suggest doing this, so I think that's the safest way to do it.

You could also do what [MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION] suggests and use statblocks like the archmage as a starting point and tweaking as needed, but once you've started doing that, you may as well just go with PC creation. And I agree about CR, especially for these kinds of NPCs...I think it's something that too much attention is given to.

Ditto. I have been using the basic Monster Manual stat blocks (even just reskinned Hobgoblins/Kobolds/etc...) for the basic enemies, but the big guys I make from scratch. It helps that the process helps me flesh out their character a bit AND its something I enjoy doing.

CR-wise I'm going with the 3/4 Level guideline and adjusting it for XP at the end. For example, last game my players fought a Fighter-Champion 5 who was an Archer. Unfortunately due to initiative and whatnot, the one guy with Control spells that could have taken him out (GG Will-Save) instead was on the business end of the Action Surged attacks and went down the first round. The fight became very difficult at that point, so I rounded the CR up at the end to give them more XP.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I have a handful of NPC villains that are very important to my campaign. For them, I straight up created them using the PC creation rules. Seemed the safest way to make them and gauge their ability compared to the PCs. The books even suggest doing this, so I think that's the safest way to do it.

It does tend to result in them having low hit points and going down very fast, unless you party them up like PCs. So I do this for PC-like adventurer characters. But for other characters, I tend to give them some more Hit Dice and borrow a few appropriate class features from the PC classes, reasoning that these characters' longer but less action-intensive careers have given them more general survivability but fewer special tricks. Makes them easier to run, anyway.