Craft DC's for Instruments

[BSF]

Hello everyone,
I am looking for some thoughts on setting the craft DC's for various musical instruments. Hopefully, somebody here can give some practical insight in how hard/easy it is to make various instruments. Barring actual experience or factual based information, SWAG's are fine too, since that is where I am coming from.

I am looking for a range of craft DC's, so any thoughts on any instrument would be fine. But, I will drop a list here for the things I am most interested in.

Whistle/recorder (the fipple flute familiy)
pan pipes/syrinx
bodhran
Harps (Assorted sizes)
lute/guitar
mandolin
fiddle/violin
dulcimer
shawm
hunting horn
ocarina

Anything that you want to add in there is great too!

EDIT: I just want to clarify, by the book, most of these should probably be a DC 10 or a DC 15. I am looking to see if a little more variance is in order. In short, I am looking to see if de-simplifying is in order for the style of games I like to run/play in. Hmm, this might better belong in the House rules forum. I will leave it up to the mods to decide if this is appropriate for General Discussion or not.

 

[Orius]

The PHB (the 3.0 version anyway) gives a DC of 15 for high-quality items and a DC of 20 for complex or superior items. Those numbers should be good enough for most instruments. I'd suggest maybe a +5 to the DC for masterwork items.

 

[Mark]

It's probably worthwhile to first determine the types of musical instruments are common (or even available) in your campaign world. Then decide which ones could be made by a craftsman with no other related skills, and give those some base DCs. Then determine which would be easier to make with an additional skill (metalworking, woodworking, etc.), and apply a synergy bonus for those cases. Then determine which of those left abosolutely require an additional skill to make at all. Those would likely be the ones with the highest DCs, IMO.

Here's a place to start -

http://music.searchbeat.com/instruments.htm

Percussion instruments might be the most varied (having the longest history) and easiest for most cultures to make. Look next toward Wind instruments, I'd suggest, since there are a number of situations where these exist in some natural forms (hollow reeds, conch shells, and such). String instruments are a bit trickier, perhaps followed by Brass instruments, then Keyboards (which are really complex percussion instruments).

The more complex inventions might require several types of craft skills to make. Don't forget to assign some "time factors" to each of these since some instruments can be made quickly with common materials and others take a great deal of time, require several types of materials and need to be made with a great deal of precision.

Those are just my off-the-cuff thoughts on the matter...

 

[BSF]

Mark, that is the type of thing I am thinking of. I'm not looking at just assigning certain instruments to be available based on an arbitrary timeline echoing Earth's development. After all, in a world where you have magic available, and you can have somewhat advanced metalurgy, there is a lot of room for relatively modern instruments to exist. The time to create is a bit of a problem for me since well made instruments might have long periods where glue, or varnish, has to cure. So, it isn't quite the same style of development that a sword might have.

Of course, this is an exercise in changing a rather abstract game mechanic and trying to model real world creation a bit more closely, then adding magic elements. For example, why assume that a lute was glued? Perhaps the craftsperson used Shape Wood to meld the pieces together rather than using glue?

It's just a rather overlooked segment of the rules and a non-combative one at that. Playing a Bard, I kind of want something a little more granular to work with.

 

[Mark]

I agree, for the most part, but would hasten to add that a baseline is also the best starting place. I think magic is generally used as a replacement, or enhancement, of what gets done by normal means. Why create a lute magically as the first example of a lute? More likely a lute gets made with glue, then a lute gets made magically because someone doesn't want to bother with glue. It is far more likely that if an arcane specialist wanted music they would bypass even creating a lute (if the lute didn't first exist), IMO.

So, I'd look toward deciding first what exists in your campaign assuming no magic then, perhaps, accelerate the processes and inovations based on magic being present. (I wonder if jgbrowning or Suzi Yee have some thoughts on this subject already.)

Along the same subject it might be a good idea to look at a timeline of actual real world composers -

http://music.searchbeat.com/composer.htm

And create a similar one for your campaign world, including dividing types of music and development based on regions. It's worth noting that certain resources would make certain musical instruments natural developments for certain regions (those with little forestry but an abundance of ores more likely to move toward metal instruments, etc.) Additionally, certain types of music might develop based on the types of instruments available in a region (Dwarven Brass Marching Bands?) and, conversely, a composer that visits an area and hears a type of music he loves, then returns to his own region where a type of instrument doesn't yet exist, might describe that type of instrument to a craftsperson who then spawns a whole new inovation because he needs to work with alternative materials.

The possibilities can be daunting, so even if you do not stick with the original timelines and baselines, it helps to create them just to give you some firm ground on which to spin your new ideas, IMO.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Here are a couple of websites for music instrument kits that might help you.
Musicmakers
Lark in the Morning

 

[Steverooo]

Balalaika/Tsimbal, etc. - DC:15
Clarinet - DC:20?
Cymbal - DC:5
Drum - DC:10
dulcimer - DC:20
fiddle/violin - DC:15
Flute, simple wooden tube with holes - DC:5
Flute, with reed - DC:15
Flute, silver, with keys - DC:15-20
guitar/lute - DC:15
Harps - DC:15
Harp, Welsh - DC:20
Horn, simple - DC:5
hunting horn - DC:5
Jawharp - DC:5
lute/guitar - DC:15
mandolin - DC:15
pan pipes/syrinx - DC:5
recorder - DC:15?
shawm - DC:15
Spoons - DC:5
syrinx/pan pipes - DC:5
Triangle - DC:5
Trumpet - DC:15
Trumpet, simple (no keys) - DC:5
Tsimbal/Balalaika, etc. - DC:15
violin/fiddle - DC:15
Welsh Harp (multiple keys) - DC:20
Whistle - DC:5.
Woodblocks - DC:5
Xylophone - DC:15

YMMV.

Whistles, simple tube flutes, etc., are easy to make, as are many percussion instruments. Drums are slightly trickier, as the body has to be formed (often from mulyiple pieces of wood fotted together), and then a skin stretched over the rim. Most stringed instruments are a bit tougher, requiring many mechanical parts, including the wood, which must be carved to produce the proper "sound chamber". Even more complex devices, like the multiply-keyed welsh harp, the dulcimer, pianos, organs, etc., would have even higher DCs.