Craft (Alchemy)

[Samothdm]

In 3.5, all of the alchemical items listed in the PH have a notation that they can only be made by characters with spellcaster levels.

Are there any "official" alchemical items that can be crafted by a non-spellcaster? If not, what would the potential downside be of allowing a non-spellcaster to use Craft (alchemy) to make, for example, acid?

 

[der_kluge]

Rules are meant to be broken. In my mind, alchemists are specifically *non* spellcasters, and devote their life to the art of alchemy, which is a noble pursuit in and of itself, and quite time-consuming, I might.

But then, I take a rather, off-the-beaten-path view of alchemy, so YMMV.

 

[Psion]

Are there any "official" alchemical items that can be crafted by a non-spellcaster? If not, what would the potential downside be of allowing a non-spellcaster to use Craft (alchemy) to make, for example, acid?

I think that the spellcaster level requirement was made to minimize the impact of shifting it to a class skill by ensuring that it didn't give it to those that didn't have it before. But if you were using expert NPCs, it sort of left them out.

It's almost that one of the few times that WotC does seem to put some bit of subtle backwards compatability, it interferes with what lots of people were doing (I don't think you are unusual at all, Curtis; I even think that WotCs emphasis on magic/alchemy division encourages that sort of thinking.)

Doesn't bother me all that much, though. I sort of see my alchemists like WHFRP alchemists, with a little magic. I just give my alchemists a level (just one) in a spellcasting class.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Are there any "official" alchemical items that can be crafted by a non-spellcaster? If not, what would the potential downside be of allowing a non-spellcaster to use Craft (alchemy) to make, for example, acid?

It's up to you.

Here is the reason why you have to be a Spellcaster to Make Alchemical Items (which by definition are NON-MAGICAL, but I'll leave the ranting for another time).

In 3.0 You had Class Exclusive Skills. Skills no one else could take. Alchemy was one of those. Everything was fine.

As 3.5 came into being the decision was made to do away with class excusive skills & to make Alchemy a Craft skill.

Now, Craft (any) is on the class skill list for most characters. Thus anybody could now take ranks in Craft (alchemy) and make all those fun toys. Thus, the 3.5 designers tried to come up with a Game-Rule mechanic that would limit Alchemy to it Wizardly 3.5 counterparts. Since all those PC Classes who had ALchemy as a class skill were spellcasters, the decision was made to require all alchemical items require one to be a spellcaster. Thus No Fighter Making Smoke Sticks in his free time. Problem Solved?

Except:

Alchemy (by historical defintion is the creation of items WITHOUT THE USE OF MAGIC). If it requires MAGIC to make it, then it ain't alchemy. It's Craft (Least Magic Item).

It COMPLETELY IGNORES all the other Item Creation Rules. Such as Do you have to cast spells while creating the item? Which Spells are needed? What Level of Spells are needed? If no spells are needed, why does one have to be a Spellcaster? Does it require blood? What?

Can Paladins/Rangers take Alchemy, but so squat with it until 4th level?

What if you are a Sorcerer & have your Charisma drained to a 9 temporarily? Since you can't cast spells, can you not make Alchemical Items?

What of the tens of thousands of NPC Expert who made their living in 3.0 as Alchemists? Are they now in the unemployment line?

From a game world & game mechanic perspective, allowing NPC's & PC's with no spellcasting to create Alchemical Items is a minor Hindrance (namely telling the Power Gaming Illetirate Barbarian he CANNOT take ranks in Craft Alchemy).

Only allowing Spellcasters to be Alchemists would really mess up may game world & really throw a wrech into the game mechanics (admitedly only in rare circumstances)

Thus, Drop the Restrictions I say.

3.5 Alchemy one of the biggest screw-ups of 3.5. I understand WHY they did it. I just cannot figure out how they KEPT it.

 

[wingsandsword]

Another person here who dropped the restrictions in their own game.

It worked just fine in 3.0, it's a friggin production skill, Bob Fighter making piles of smokesticks and tindertwigs in his spare time is not exactly game-breaking, and making it require spellcasting does break the whole "alchemy is not magic" thing. That and like other GM's, I had Expert alchemist NPC's, and didn't see a need to make them Adepts.

 

[Psion]

In 3.0 You had Class Exclusive Skills. Skills no one else could take. Alchemy was one of those.

Was it?

I thought only two skills were on that list (decipher script was one, wasn't use magical device the other.)

Anyways, it's about the easiest rule in the world to nix. It really only has game world impact.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Was it?

I thought only two skills were on that list (decipher script was one, wasn't use magical device the other.)

Anyways, it's about the easiest rule in the world to nix. It really only has game world impact.

Whoops.

You are right. Alchemy was a Trained Only skill, not a class exclusive.

Which makes the 3.0 - 3.5 gulf even worse as Any character COULD take ranks in Alchemy (though not the best expediture of 2 SP/lvl).

Like just about everyone else I know, I had NPC Expert Alchemists. And, to require ALL alchemist to be spellcasters would fundamentally changing how Alchemy works in my game. (Most alchemists are people who, for one reason or another, lacked the 'spark' to become spellcasters & took up the 'science' of alchemy instead).

 

[Tonguez]

namely telling the Power Gaming Illetirate Barbarian he CANNOT take ranks in Craft Alchemy

except that a Barbarian boiling the bark of the bunyib tree to make poison to smear on his arrows is Craft:Alchemy too

and yes making Alchemy spellcaster only is dumb!!

but then again I let Experts take Magic Item Crafting Feats too

 

[Samothdm]

I'm basically in agreement with everyone here as far as how I deal with it in my own campaign. I'm just in a bit of a quandry in terms of something I"m writing now (which was originally conceived a long time ago pre-3.5e). As it is now, the book is not about spellcasters (it's about experts), but has to adhere to current rules, which means that to use Craft (alchemy) the character has to have spellcasting levels. I'm not allowed the flexibility of changing the rules (for example, ignoring the spellcaster requirement), so my thinking was to just come up with new alchemical items that could be created using Craft (alchemy) but that don't require the user to be a spellcaster. It's a bit tricky.

Sticking to the SRD, the way I read it, it only specifies that certain items (all of the alchemical items listed in the equipment section) require the crafter to have Craft (alchemy), but it doesn't specifically state that to use Craft (alchemy) in general that the user must be a spellcaster. Am I correct in seeing that there's a small distinction there that could be exploited?

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

I'm basically in agreement with everyone here as far as how I deal with it in my own campaign. I'm just in a bit of a quandry in terms of something I"m writing now (which was originally conceived a long time ago pre-3.5e). As it is now, the book is not about spellcasters (it's about experts), but has to adhere to current rules, which means that to use Craft (alchemy) the character has to have spellcasting levels. I'm not allowed the flexibility of changing the rules (for example, ignoring the spellcaster requirement), so my thinking was to just come up with new alchemical items that could be created using Craft (alchemy) but that don't require the user to be a spellcaster. It's a bit tricky.

Sticking to the SRD, the way I read it, it only specifies that certain items (all of the alchemical items listed in the equipment section) require the crafter to have Craft (alchemy), but it doesn't specifically state that to use Craft (alchemy) in general that the user must be a spellcaster. Am I correct in seeing that there's a small distinction there that could be exploited?

Simple:

General Feat: Craft Alchemical Items. You may make Alchemical Items as normal, even if you have no Spellcasting Ability.

Do I get a cut?