D&D 5E CR 3/4?

[Argyle King]

While creating a creature, I arrived at an average CR of 0.75. Which way should I round when rounding
to the "nearest CR"? Would it be CR 1/2 or CR 1?

Looking at the creature I have, I don't see it doing a lot of damage, so, offensively, it seems hard to
justify CR 1. On the other hand, the creature is somewhat heavily armored, and I could potentially see
it outlasting an ill prepared party in a toe-to-toe fight.

So, for the moment, I'm considering keeping the creature at CR 3/4 and saying it is worth 150 XP.

Alternatively, I've also considered lowering the HP total I had in mind and more solidly pushing the base
creature to CR 1/2. Then, I'd possibly reserve the CR 3/4 version (slightly tougher) for a hardier specimen.

Some outside input would be appreciated.

 

[Sunseeker]

There are plenty of CR 1/8th creatures so I don't see why, mathematically if it's not quite a 1, but more than 1/2, a CR 3/4ths wouldn't be appropriate.

Perhaps you could give us this creatures stats for a better point of reference?

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION] This sort of issue comes up a lot when I've been making my own monsters (and to a lesser extent when converting). Round up or down for a monster's total CR?

If the answer isn't obvious, I closely look at where within the reference range listed in the DMG each of the creature's key stats falls: DPR, attack bonus, HP, and AC.

If, for example, the monster's DPR is barely within the threshold for a certain CR, it's attack bonus is average, its hit points are at the low end, and its armor is about average, then I would round down for the monster.

If I can't draw any conclusions from where these values lie, then I look to its special abilities to see if any of it's powers make it suited to a certain level of play. For example, if I have a monster that's CR 12.5 but is immune to spells of 6th level or lower, then I should round up to CR 13 because a party of 12th level PCs only has 6th level and lower spells.

Hope that helps.

 

[Argyle King]

There are plenty of CR 1/8th creatures so I don't see why, mathematically if it's not quite a 1, but more than 1/2, a CR 3/4ths wouldn't be appropriate.

Perhaps you could give us this creatures stats for a better point of reference?

This is the rough draft that I currently have:

ZEETLE (Adult)
large beast, unaligned
-------------------------------------
Armor Class 15
Hit Points 57 (6d10 + 24)
Speed 25 ft
------------------------------------
STR 20 (+5) DEX 8 (-1) CON 18 (+4) INT 2 (-4) WIS 9 (-1) CHA 4 (-3)
------------------------------------
Skills Perception +2; Survival +2
Senses Blindsight 30 ft; Passive Perception 11
Languages -
Challenge 3/4 (150 xp)
------------------------------------
Illumination. The Zeetle sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius
and dim light for an additional 10 feet.

Actions
------------
Slam Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 feet, one target.
Hit: 7 (1d4 + 5); on a critical hit the target must
make a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.



Additional thoughts/notes: If I reduce the number of hit dice to 5,
that gives me a HP value of 47 which I believe puts the creature more
solidly into CR 1/2. I've considered using that as a sort of progression.
The version above could be an older/tougher version that occurs
once a Zeetle makes it to 6HD. Normal adults would be 5HD;
; young adults could be 4HD, and younger
categories would have less and be smaller sizes.

The intent of the creature is to fulfill a niche similar to
a buffalo for a group of desert elves.
While the creature tends to be a somewhat passive
grazing animal, they can be tough to
bring down and possibly violent when
provoked (or during mating seasons.)

In my mind, they look like large zebra-striped
beetles... hence "Zeetle."

I also plan to create a larger and more
deadly "bull" version which is rarer.

I was thinking a pack defense mechanism
would be to mark an enemy with a
pheromone which causes the rest of
the pack to be hostile toward an
aggressor. I don't yet have a clear
picture for how that works yet though.

 

[77IM]

My gut says this is closer to CR1: 57 HP and AC15 is pretty substantial. Compare to dire wolf, which has 37 HP and AC14, and only does 3 points more damage.

Since these guys are mostly docile, I'd reduce their hit dice and/or Constitution and make them CR 1/2. A friggin' rhinoceros has only 45 hit points at CR2, so I don't see why a zeetle needs to be so burly and healthy. (The rhinoceros stat block is sometimes used to represent oxen, which seem to fill a niche similar to zeetles.)

(Kudos for the name zeetle, btw.)

 

[Argyle King]

My gut says this is closer to CR1: 57 HP and AC15 is pretty substantial. Compare to dire wolf, which has 37 HP and AC14, and only does 3 points more damage.

Since these guys are mostly docile, I'd reduce their hit dice and/or Constitution and make them CR 1/2. A friggin' rhinoceros has only 45 hit points at CR2, so I don't see why a zeetle needs to be so burly and healthy. (The rhinoceros stat block is sometimes used to represent oxen, which seem to fill a niche similar to zeetles.)

(Kudos for the name zeetle, btw.)

The rhino is one of the creatures I compared to (as well as an elephant.) I tried to take into consideration that the rhino has far more offensive power considering the higher base damage and the ability to charge.

Still, I think you have a fair point. I do like the idea of lowering the hit dice and putting the typical specimen at around 47 HP though. Part of my thinking for that is to make a fight against one of these things (in the event that occurs) not feeling like it's dragging against a hard to hit bag of HP. Also, thematically, I imagine that the exoskeleton is tough to break through, but, once you do, it's a big squishy bug underneath.


A bit of a sidetrack...

If what I posted already is a more powerful or advance specimen, these are my thoughts....

This is way more detail than necessary, but I was bored, so...

Zeetle Juvenile: size changes to medium; AC is probably lower (14,) HP is lower (using d8s instead of d10s) exactly stats depend on how old you want it to be. For a quick "juvenile," subtract 1 from all statistics except for DEX; anything involving DEX gets a +1. I do have a rough ballpark in mind to get to a CR 1/4 specimen and for a specimen that would be suitable for a ranger or druid's companion in the event that would ever come up.

Zeetle Young Adult: same stats as above, but change HP to 38 (4d10+16) and CR is 1/2... also change speed to 30.
Thematically, this would be explained by saying it's an adult, but not quite full size yet, so lighter. Mechanically, I think the increased speed helps offset the lessened HP to still be the same CR as an "adult.". I know the rules suggest that regular movement speed shouldn't factor into CR, but I tend to feel that the ability of a melee focused creature to actually engage its enemy should be taken into consideration here.

Zeetle Adult: same stats as above, but change HP to 47 (5d10+20) and CR is 1/2 with XP being as for a CR 1/2 creature.

Zeetle Elder: same stats as above, but the slam does 1d6+5. CR is 3/4 (as posted above) and it is worth 150 XP. (I still don't feel it's worth a full CR 1 due to limited offensive capabilities, but would appreciate feedback if anyone would like to playtest some Zeetles.)

I'm debating upon whether they can Burrow or not. I'm thinking they can, but only through sand (or similar) material. There's a storyline reason why. The short version is that there is a group of lizardfolk who live underground and have a dispute with the desert elves over who the Zeetles belong to. At night, the Zeetles surface and roam the desert; the elves (who are semi-nomadic) often follow the trails of the Zeetles.

On a side note: The desert elves were something of a way to use the Egyptian gods in the setting. These particular elves are loosely based upon a few Native American tribes (with perhaps a little African influence.) The various nature spirits they pray to are spiritual versions of the Egyptian pantheon. I'm not really sure how this fits into the religious views of other elves, so I'm currently settled on the idea of the various nomadic groups not fully agreeing on how they are related to other elves. Some believe Ra is simply a brother/cousin/whatever to Corellon; a few believe they were originally part of the group who eventually became Drow but turned away from Lolth before it was too late (though still too late to go back home); some simply accept that their beliefs are what they are and don't think a whole lot about other elves whom they seldom interact with.

The baseline assumption I'm using for this game is the set of Dawn War Deities with a few additions.

 

[Jester David]

I always round down. The MM creatures seem a little weak compared to the DMG numbers and players can be cunning and devious. Better to give them a challenge.

 

[PnPgamer]

This is the rough draft that I currently have:

ZEETLE (Adult)
large beast, unaligned
-------------------------------------
Armor Class 15
Hit Points 57 (6d10 + 24)
Speed 25 ft
------------------------------------
STR 20 (+5) DEX 8 (-1) CON 18 (+4) INT 2 (-4) WIS 9 (-1) CHA 4 (-3)
------------------------------------
Skills Perception +2; Survival +2
Senses Blindsight 30 ft; Passive Perception 11
Languages -
Challenge 3/4 (150 xp)
------------------------------------
Illumination. The Zeetle sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius
and dim light for an additional 10 feet.

Actions
------------
Slam Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 feet, one target.
Hit: 7 (1d4 + 5); on a critical hit the target must
make a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.



Additional thoughts/notes: If I reduce the number of hit dice to 5,
that gives me a HP value of 47 which I believe puts the creature more
solidly into CR 1/2. I've considered using that as a sort of progression.
The version above could be an older/tougher version that occurs
once a Zeetle makes it to 6HD. Normal adults would be 5HD;
; young adults could be 4HD, and younger
categories would have less and be smaller sizes.

The intent of the creature is to fulfill a niche similar to
a buffalo for a group of desert elves.
While the creature tends to be a somewhat passive
grazing animal, they can be tough to
bring down and possibly violent when
provoked (or during mating seasons.)

In my mind, they look like large zebra-striped
beetles... hence "Zeetle."

I also plan to create a larger and more
deadly "bull" version which is rarer.

I was thinking a pack defense mechanism
would be to mark an enemy with a
pheromone which causes the rest of
the pack to be hostile toward an
aggressor. I don't yet have a clear
picture for how that works yet though.

Holy heck that thing is on steroids!!! He could possibly eat bugbears for breakfast.
Also i think that insects dont have mating seasons... They just do it constantly...

 

[delericho]

While creating a creature, I arrived at an average CR of 0.75. Which way should I round when rounding
to the "nearest CR"? Would it be CR 1/2 or CR 1?

Round down. Never give a PC an even break.

(More to the point, that is the convention that 5e has adopted - that fractions be rounded down. Although your suggested compromise of just leaving it at CR 3/4 is a good one, too.)

 

[Tormyr]

This is the rough draft that I currently have:

ZEETLE (Adult)
large beast, unaligned
-------------------------------------
Armor Class 15
Hit Points 57 (6d10 + 24)
Speed 25 ft
------------------------------------
STR 20 (+5) DEX 8 (-1) CON 18 (+4) INT 2 (-4) WIS 9 (-1) CHA 4 (-3)
------------------------------------
Skills Perception +2; Survival +2
Senses Blindsight 30 ft; Passive Perception 11
Languages -
Challenge 3/4 (150 xp)
------------------------------------
Illumination. The Zeetle sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius
and dim light for an additional 10 feet.

Actions
------------
Slam Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 feet, one target.
Hit: 7 (1d4 + 5); on a critical hit the target must
make a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.



Additional thoughts/notes: If I reduce the number of hit dice to 5,
that gives me a HP value of 47 which I believe puts the creature more
solidly into CR 1/2. I've considered using that as a sort of progression.
The version above could be an older/tougher version that occurs
once a Zeetle makes it to 6HD. Normal adults would be 5HD;
; young adults could be 4HD, and younger
categories would have less and be smaller sizes.

The intent of the creature is to fulfill a niche similar to
a buffalo for a group of desert elves.
While the creature tends to be a somewhat passive
grazing animal, they can be tough to
bring down and possibly violent when
provoked (or during mating seasons.)

A couple of general notes:

The strength score, attack bonus, and saving throw DC do not line up. In general a monster with a 20 strength and is anything lower than CR 5 would have an attack bonus of 7 and a saving throw DC of 15 against being knocked prone. Usually, but not always, in the MM the attack bonus and save DC can be calculated from an ability score and proficiency bonus. The attack bonus of 3 would be seen for a Strength 12 creature or a strength 16 creature that did not get its proficiency bonus. The saving throw DC of 13 is also where it would be for a Strength 16 monster. In general, all monsters are proficient with their built in attacks, and they should be getting their proficiency bonus for their attacks and saving throw DCs. Right now that strength 20 score is doing nothing except letting the monster carry bigger loads and jump further.

So there are a couple options available for changing the stat block to get it to CR 1/2 or CR 1:
* Change the attack bonus 7 and saving throw DC to 15 to match the Strength 20 score and give the proficiency bonus: The CR comes out at 1.5. 1 hit die less brings it to a CR 1.
* Change the Strength to 16, the attack bonus to 5 and the saving throw DC to 13: CR 3/4. Dropping 1 hit die takes it to CR 1/2, adding 2 takes it to CR 1
* Drop 1 hit die to change to CR 1/2.
* Change the damage die to d6 to increase it to CR 1
* Drop the hit dice to 2 and give it resistance to bludgeoning, slashing and piercing from nonmagical weapons to take it to CR 1/2 or 4 hit dice for CR 1

You might like to try my monster CR calculator. It lets you type in the stats and make adjustments fairly quickly. http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1189