Cover & Flanking?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Does cover negate flanking?

For example, one of the flanking attackers is attacking through a blade barrier (which grants cover) that's between him and the defender. Does flanking still apply?

This came up in our game today and we couldn't find anything that indicated flanking is negated by cover. Is this correct?

 

[Hypersmurf]

This comes down to a question of "If you are prevented from making an AoO, do you still threaten an area?"

Cover prevents AoOs. Thus, if the character has cover, you cannot make an AoO on him.

If this means you don't threaten him, then you can't provide an ally with a flanking bonus.

If, however, it means you can't make an AoO despite threatening that square, you still provide the flanking bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

This comes down to a question of "If you are prevented from making an AoO, do you still threaten an area?"

Why? Where does restriction based on AoO come into the question with respect to flanking from the following definitions:

flank

To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that she is flanking.

threaten

To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space. A creature typically threatens all squares within its natural reach, even when it is not its turn to take an action. For a Medium or Small creature this usually includes all squares adjacent to its space. Larger creatures threaten more squares, while smaller creatures may not threaten any squares except their own.


threatened square

A square within an opponent's reach. Generally, characters threaten all adjacent squares, though reach weapons can alter this range. Certain actions provoke attacks of opportunity when taken within a threatened square.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Why?

There is a school of thought that "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action" (PHB, page 137) means you only threaten if you can make an out-of-turn melee attack (i.e., an AoO). The only support I can find in the PHB for this claim is in the whip description (page 121): "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack."

I believe many official (non-PHB) rules have also suggested that "threaten" is synonymous with "able to make an AoO." Based on the PHB alone, however, it would seem that you can indeed threaten someone who has cover relative to you.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why? Where does restriction based on AoO come into the question with respect to flanking from the following definitions:

The quote that got tossed around a bit in the recent sidetrack in a grappling thread - "Can you attack an adjacent square while grappling?" - was this one:

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

The argument went, as I understand it, that "don't threaten squares and thus can't make an AoO" means that "don't threaten squares" means "Can't make an AoO" and nothing else, which means that "Can't make an AoO" means "Don't threaten squares".

If I followed what they were saying correctly, anyway.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Does this part help

Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Cover doesn't have this special consideration - that is you can attack someone who has cover relative to you (they do get a bonus to AC though). But. . .

Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

So you do threaten someone with cover relative to you but you can't make an AoO against them. If they have total cover relative to you, you can't attack them so you do not threaten them.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

So you do threaten someone with cover relative to you but you can't make an AoO against them. If they have total cover relative to you, you can't attack them so you do not threaten them.

I agree with you. But the argument could be made that you still threaten, but you just can't make an attack or an AoO. Thus, flanking could still apply.

I'd probably use the rules quoted above but it's an interesting loophole in the rules.

 

[irdeggman]

I agree with you. But the argument could be made that you still threaten, but you just can't make an attack or an AoO. Thus, flanking could still apply.

Not for total cover.

Total cover prevents making an attack and being able to make an attack is a prerequisite for threatening.

Pretty much you do not threaten someone on the other side of a 10 ft wall when you are the size of a halfing.