Coup de Grace questions (multiple attacks)

[kerbarian]

The coup de grace entry says that "You can deliver a coup de grace against a helpless enemy adjacent to you. Use any attack power you could normally use against the enemy, including a basic attack." Underneath, it says "Hit: You score a critical hit."

I have some questions (and best guesses at answers) on how this works in certain situations. Has there been any official clarification on this?

Q1: A wizard is adjacent to multiple helpless enemies and decides to use Thunder Wave as a coup de grace. What happens?
A1: The Thunder Wave can target multiple helpless enemies, but only one of them can be the coup de grace target; hits against the others don't turn into crits. This is based on the phrasing "against a helpless enemy".

Q2: A ranger uses Twin Strike to deliver a coup de grace. What happens?
A2: The "Hit: You score a critical hit." effect happens for each hit, so the ranger will likely get two critical hits. If the total damage from both crits equals the creature's bloodied value, it dies.

Q3: A fighter with the Reckless Attacker feat (MP p.144) delivers a coup de grace and crits. What happens?
A3: The Reckless Attacker feat grants an extra melee basic attack as a free action, which the fighter can use against the helpless target. If he hits with the extra attack, it is not turned into a crit, because the attack wasn't part of the power chosen for the coup de grace attack. The damage from the extra attack is not counted when determining if the total damage equals the target's bloodied value.

Do those look right?

I've been considering a house rule that a coup de grace can only turn a single hit into a crit, rather than all hits of a power -- this was inspired by the combo of Sleep / Rain of Blows, which can easily take out an unscathed elite by dealing his bloodied value in one coup de grace.

 

[radja]

I count each attack roll that hits and qualifies for a coup de grace to be a critical hit. as for the bloodied value: I also count that per attack roll, not per attack power. note that a creature may wake up after an attack roll (the rogue powers that cause unconsciousness last until the creature takes damage). these may be house rules, but to me and my players they make sense.

 

[abyssaldeath]

The coup de grace entry says that "You can deliver a coup de grace against a helpless enemy adjacent to you. Use any attack power you could normally use against the enemy, including a basic attack." Underneath, it says "Hit: You score a critical hit."

I have some questions (and best guesses at answers) on how this works in certain situations. Has there been any official clarification on this?

Q1: A wizard is adjacent to multiple helpless enemies and decides to use Thunder Wave as a coup de grace. What happens?
A1: The Thunder Wave can target multiple helpless enemies, but only one of them can be the coup de grace target; hits against the others don't turn into crits. This is based on the phrasing "against a helpless enemy".

Q2: A ranger uses Twin Strike to deliver a coup de grace. What happens?
A2: The "Hit: You score a critical hit." effect happens for each hit, so the ranger will likely get two critical hits. If the total damage from both crits equals the creature's bloodied value, it dies.

Q3: A fighter with the Reckless Attacker feat (MP p.144) delivers a coup de grace and crits. What happens?
A3: The Reckless Attacker feat grants an extra melee basic attack as a free action, which the fighter can use against the helpless target. If he hits with the extra attack, it is not turned into a crit, because the attack wasn't part of the power chosen for the coup de grace attack. The damage from the extra attack is not counted when determining if the total damage equals the target's bloodied value.

Do those look right?

All your answers are correct.

I've been considering a house rule that a coup de grace can only turn a single hit into a crit, rather than all hits of a power -- this was inspired by the combo of Sleep / Rain of Blows, which can easily take out an unscathed elite by dealing his bloodied value in one coup de grace.

You first need to hit with the Sleep Spell. Elites have higher defenses and they get a +2 to saving throws. So using the Sleep/RoB combo doesn't really go in the players favor against Elites and Solos.

 

[Mercurius]

Why isn't a Coup de Grace automatic death, at least if the victim is truly helpless (unable to move) and the attacker is not rushed (not being attacked or in combat)? I mean, is slitting a throat all that difficult?

 

[LittleFuzzy]

Why isn't a Coup de Grace automatic death, at least if the victim is truly helpless (unable to move) and the attacker is not rushed (not being attacked or in combat)? I mean, is slitting a throat all that difficult?

Because a decision was made to remove automatic death effects, since they're frustrating as hell. Besides, how do you slit the throat of a gelatinous cube? Or a swarm?

 

[kerbarian]

You first need to hit with the Sleep Spell. Elites have higher defenses and they get a +2 to saving throws. So using the Sleep/RoB combo doesn't really go in the players favor against Elites and Solos.

Orb of Inescapable Consequences (AV) + Orb of Imposition makes it very likely that a particular target will fall asleep -- better than a 75% chance on elites. It uses a daily power and a daily item power, but it's proven quite effective.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Because a decision was made to remove automatic death effects, since they're frustrating as hell. Besides, how do you slit the throat of a gelatinous cube? Or a swarm?

Or a colossal foe? I mean you're just going to be hewing into it for several round before you even hit anything vital...

 

[Mercurius]

Alright, I thought of those--there are always exceptions. But no matter how much we want to follow the RAW, doesn't it make sense that if:

1) The victim is truly helpless (asleep, in a coma, paralyzed, tied up, or otherwise immobile),

2) Large or smaller in size, and

3) There are no magical or unusual effects at work, and

3) The attacker is not being attacked or rushed in any way, then...

...a Coup de Grace means an automatic kill? I just don't see any way around that as basic common sense, which should always trump the rules (IMO). Otherwise you have someone ridiculously sawing away at someone's neck with a dagger doing critical hits over many rounds. Not to mention that the RAW allow for misses...I mean, come on.

 

[Grabuto138]

Alright, I thought of those--there are always exceptions. But no matter how much we want to follow the RAW, doesn't it make sense that if:

1) The victim is truly helpless (asleep, in a coma, paralyzed, tied up, or otherwise immobile),

2) Large or smaller in size, and

3) There are no magical or unusual effects at work, and

3) The attacker is not being attacked or rushed in any way, then...

...a Coup de Grace means an automatic kill? I just don't see any way around that as basic common sense, which should always trump the rules (IMO). Otherwise you have someone ridiculously sawing away at someone's neck with a dagger doing critical hits over many rounds. Not to mention that the RAW allow for misses...I mean, come on.

For 1 and 3 most DMs would (or probably should) prefer to handle these as narrative, role-playing or skills oriented situations so the coup de grace wouldn't be a factor.

Number 2 starts a cascade of "common sense" calls that are usually counter-productive from a game standpoint. A small creature is easier to CdG than a large? Is a long sword better than a mace? Are they face down or face up? Wearing a metal collar?

 

[frankthedm]

Why isn't a Coup de Grace automatic death, at least if the victim is truly helpless (unable to move) and the attacker is not rushed (not being attacked or in combat)? I mean, is slitting a throat all that difficult?

The problem is, players and monsters were ONLY given abilities that made their target helpless because the rules did not allow for instant death to be dealt out. Make CDG instant death and Sleep and a host of powers must be rewritten.