Cost/Time to use a Golem Manual?

[FoxWander]

I'm a little confused on how much it should cost to use a Golem Manual, and how long it takes to create a golem using one. I'm sure these two are related. Hopefully someone here can help me out.

On the cost of using one, it's this line from the Manual's basic description that's causing problems- "The cost of the book does not include the cost of constructing the golem’s body." Is the cost of the body strictly the cost of the body itself or the cost for the whole golem?

I'll use an Iron Golem as an example as it has the clearest guidelines for these costs.

An iron golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp + 5,600 XP.

Emphasis my own.

According to the "Trade Goods" table of the PHB, iron costs 1 silver a pound, so 5,000 lbs costs 500 gold. That makes the strict cost of the physical body 10,500 gp. But, I've seen it stated in various posts on various websites, that the "cost of constructing the golem’s body" (as the manual description puts it) should be the total cost to create the golem, or 80,000 gold in this case.

I don't see how that could be correct as it relates to using the Iron Golem Manual though since; if you're spending 80K to create the golem from scratch, what do you need a Golem Manual for?

But, on the other hand, if all it takes to get an Iron Golem is 35K for the manual and 10.5K for the body, why would anyone create one from scratch for almost twice the cost?!

So you see my confusion?!? I hope someone can give me some advice or a rules reference that will clear up the mess.



On a related note- assuming you get all the various costs figured out and OK'd by your DM, how long does it take to animate the golem using a golem manual? Since the manual provides the XP and all the spells (w/spell trigger activation) it would almost seem that, if you had the body on hand, it would only take a few rounds to complete the ritual and get a functioning golem. One round for each spell it takes, that completes the ritual so the book bursts into flames (another round), another round to sprinkle the ashes and you've got your golem.

Again, it seems there is a great deal of description missing from how these manuals are supposed to work. Any advice/help anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. This is likely to affect the game I'm in in the next session or two.

Thanks!

 

[Bayushi Seikuro]

The way I understand it - which might be flawed - is that you pay for the body. The body costs a bare minimum of 10k. It looks like the 10k includes all the rare arcane things you need smelted into the casing of the golem.

So, to me, it's looking like it would cost the price of the manual + 10k gp for the body. Still a lot cheaper than the alternative. ( I assume the other costs include the costs for wish, etc)

From the SRD:
--------------
A golem manual contains information, incantations and magical power that help a character to craft a golem. The instructions therein grant a +5 competence bonus on skill checks made to craft the golem’s body. Each manual also holds the prerequisite spells needed for a specific golem, effectively grants the builder use of the Craft Construct feat during the construction of the golem, and grants the character an increase to her caster level for the purpose of crafting a golem. Any golem built using a golem manual does not cost the creator any XP, since the requisite XP are “contained” in the book and “expended” by the book during the creation process.

The spells included in a golem manual require a spell trigger activation and can be activated only to assist in the construction of a golem. The cost of the book does not include the cost of constructing the golem’s body. Once the golem is finished, the writing in the manual fades and the book is consumed in flames. When the book’s ashes are sprinkled upon the golem, it becomes fully animated. ...

Iron Golem Manual: The book contains cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, and polymorph any object. The reader may treat her caster level as four levels higher than normal for the purpose of crafting a iron golem. The book supplies 5,600 XP for the creation of a iron golem.
------------------

The advantage, obviously, is the book fuels the XP, gives you a bonus to the crafting checks, gives you a free feat while using it, and the spells nessecarily.

I would agree too that it'd be be (one round per spell) + (one round of Book On Fire) + (one round of spreading the ashes) to animate the golem.

Of course, I just woke up, so I could be wrong.

[EDIT: The other thing I noticed as an advantage to the book: the +4 Caster level it gives you lets you make a golem at a much lower level. That and the fact it's a temporary free feat, and free XP for that feat, makes it a pretty good Loot.]

 

[Delta]

Wow, what I'm amazed to find out is that there was no golem manual in the 3.0 rules! (At least not the core rules DMG, maybe they slipped it in a later supplement).

In 1E, you'd make the body, and the "sprinkle ashes of book" was all you needed to activate it. In 3.5, there seems to be confusion in the design about what spells are doing in the book, or what is getting activated how, or what exactly the ash-sprinkling accomplishes. It's like the 3.5 designer halfway thought they just needed to supply a casting of prerequisite spells, and forgot that most of the cost of a golem is costs for some unnamed ritual (or something).

Per rules-as-written, my reading is definitely:
- Body costs 10,000 gp.
- Manual costs 35,000 gp.
- Manual is very underpriced compared to golem.
- Time spent is undetermined.

To be balanced, I think you might need to ad-hoc judge that:
- Body costs 80,000 gp.
- Manual costs 35,000 gp.
- Manual basically serves up all prerequisites (skills, feats, spells you may not have).
- Time spent is normal for golem construction.

As a complete aside, in 1E making an iron golem from scratch cost 80,000 gp. Making one with a golem manual cost 100,000 gp + 30,000 gp for the manual, and 4 months time. That's remarkably close to the second interpretation above. I think the problem was where 3E broke out a separate small cost for "the body" versus some unnamed other larger cost, which was then overlooked in the 3.5 item design, and created the breakdown here.

 

[Bayushi Seikuro]

For the record, I like Delta's take on it. 10k body + 35k book seems very under priced for a beastie like an iron golem.

I hate when descriptions, like for the golem body, use the term 'at least 10,000 gp.' I mean, maybe I'm cheap, but... unless there was some functionality issue why it was better to spend more... I mean, if you spend 10k instead of 80k, do you have to run around screaming 'It's not a bug; it's an undocumented feature!' about your golem?

 

[Jack Simth]

Well, if you try to break down the cost of a Golem Manual:

Stone Golem Manual, Greater: The book contains geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, and slow. The reader may treat her caster level as three levels higher than normal for the purpose of crafting a stone golem. The book supplies 7,640 XP for the creation of a greater stone golem.

Strong abjuration and enchantment; CL 16th; Craft Construct, creator must be caster level 16th, antimagic field, geas/quest, symbol of stunning; Price 44,000 gp; Cost 2,900 gp + 7,872 XP; Weight 5 lb.

then you've got (for the manual):
Materials: 2,900 gp
XP: 7,872
Market: 44,000 gp.
At Market Price = Double Materials + 5*extra XP in GP, you've got... (extra as in more than the Market Price / 25)
Materials: 5800 (which adds 232 xp)
XP: (7,872-232)*5=7,640*5=38,200 gp (do note that the 7,640 xp is exactly the amount that the item lists that it provides)
Total: 44,000 gp.

If, rather than focusing on what the books say they don't supply, and focusing instead on what the books say they do supply, the books provide:

Golem Manual: A golem manual contains information, incantations and magical power that help a character to craft a golem. The instructions therein grant a +5 competence bonus on skill checks made to craft the golem’s body. Each manual also holds the prerequisite spells needed for a specific golem, effectively grants the builder use of the Craft Construct feat during the construction of the golem, and grants the character an increase to her caster level for the purpose of crafting a golem. Any golem built using a golem manual does not cost the creator any XP, since the requisite XP are “contained” in the book and “expended” by the book during the creation process.

The spells included in a golem manual require a spell trigger activation and can be activated only to assist in the construction of a golem. The cost of the book does not include the cost of constructing the golem’s body. Once the golem is finished, the writing in the manual fades and the book is consumed in flames. When the book’s ashes are sprinkled upon the golem, it becomes fully animated.

(Emphasis added)
+5 Comptence bonus to Craft the body
Required Spells for making golem
Use of Craft Construct
Caster level bonus
XP

It doesn't include the mystical other materials required for any enchanting. The line about not including the cost of the golem's body is confusing - because people read that as meaning that everything else is taken care of, which it isn't.

 

[FoxWander]

Well, if you try to break down the cost of a Golem Manual:

then you've got (for the manual):
Materials: 2,900 gp
XP: 7,872
Market: 44,000 gp.
At Market Price = Double Materials + 5*extra XP in GP, you've got... (extra as in more than the Market Price / 25)
Materials: 5800 (which adds 232 xp)
XP: (7,872-232)*5=7,640*5=38,200 gp (do note that the 7,640 xp is exactly the amount that the item lists that it provides)
Total: 44,000 gp.

Yeah, the price and creation costs of the golem manuals are a bit wonky, but I had already managed to figure out what you illustrated here. Most of the price comes from the XP the manual provides for golem creation. But everything adds up nicely once you you figure out where it's coming from: Price = 2x Materials cost + the Extra XP value. But what's hard to breakdown is that materials cost. Take the Greater Stone Golem Manual you used here- what's the formula to arrive at the 2,900 gp cost to create the manual (minus the bonus XP)? After all, that price should account for everything the manual provides except for the XP, as you show here...

+5 Competence bonus to Craft the body
Required Spells for making golem
Use of Craft Construct
Caster level bonus

Breaking that down the +5 bonus to Craft can be covered by a single use, use activated Magecraft spell (ECS, p. 113). That should be 50gp, same as potion. Granted the craft bonus last longer than the spells duration of 1 day, but that's close enough.

Use of the Craft Construct feat and the Caster level bonus? I don't know how to account for the price of those. Those kinds of effects are hard to price anyway, and these only last long enough to use the item... so I'll leave those alone for now. I'll see how much is unaccounted for after the spells.

The spells included in a Greater Stone Golem Manual are: antimagic field, geas/quest and symbol of stunning. And they should be at caster level 16. Since they're spell trigger activation, the price "should" be as a Staff with 1 charge for each spell. So that's full price for Symbol of Stunning (7 * 16 * 375 = 42,000) + 75% for Antimagic Field (6 * 16 * 375 * 0.75 = 27,000) + 50% for Geas/Quest (6 * 16 * 375 * 0.5 = 18,000) = 87,000 / 50 = 1,740 * 3 = 5,220 gp. See, that's why I put should in quotes. I didn't think that price would work out.

The price works out perfectly if you price them as Scrolls and use the price reductions for multiple effects as a Staff. Just to show the work...
100% for Symbol of Stunning: 7 * 16 * 12.5 = 1,400
75% for Antimagic Field: 6 * 16 * 12.5 * 0.75 = 900
50% for Geas/Quest: 6 * 16 * 12.5 * 0.5 = 600
Total = 2,900 gp

Works out fine... IF you throw in the Crafting bonus, feat and caster level bonus for free.

I'll run the numbers for the other Golem Manual spells and see if they account for the Materials Cost as well. But I have one more thing to comment on...

The line about not including the cost of the golem's body is confusing - because people read that as meaning that everything else is taken care of, which it isn't.

Yes, that's the bit that's MOST annoying. Calling out the cost of the body as not included AND THEN the golem descriptions having a seperate "body cost" aside from the creation cost, makes this whole deal VERY annoying and opens up too much for individual interpretation. I mean Golem's are expensive, and the difference between those body and creation costs are huge!

For what it's worth, I thought about it after posting this morning (which was after staying up all night) and it DOES make since that the cost of the body should be the FULL golem creation cost. The main value of the manual is in the XP it provides. Without a Manual you have to pay the creation cost and then give up the XP too. The other perks of using the Manual are just icing on the cake. And apparently WOTC thinks so too since the appear to be free of charge.

 

[frankthedm]

As long as we are on the costs of golems, it seems the greater stone golem is a HUGE value. For the aproximate cost of a 25 HD stone golem if you follow the mathmatic costs for the Normal stone golem, you get a CR 16 critter that would have been CR19, even at the generous golem advancement of 4 HD for 1 CR.

HD     CR     Market    Material   XP cost
14     11     90000     50000     3400
15     11     95000     52500     3600
16     11     100000     55000     3800
17     11     105000     57500     4000
18     12     110000     60000     4200
19     12     115000     62500     4400
20     12     120000     65000     4600
21     13     175000     72500     6800
22     14     180000     75000     7000
23     14     185000     77500     7200
24     14     190000     80000     7400
[u]25     14     195000     82500     7600[/u]
26     15     200000     85000     7800
27     15     205000     87500     8000
28     15     210000     90000     8200
29     15     215000     92500     8400
30     16     220000     95000     8600
31     16     225000     97500     8800
32     16     230000     100000     9000
33     16     235000     102500     9200
34     17     240000     105000     9400
35     17     245000     107500     9600
36     17     250000     110000     9800
37     17     255000     112500     10000
38     18     260000     115000     10200
39     18     265000     117500     10400
40     18     270000     120000     10600
41     18     275000     122500     10800
[b]42     19     280000     125000     11000[/b]
43     19     285000     127500     11200
44     19     290000     130000     11400
45     19     295000     132500     11600
46     20     300000     135000     11800
47     20     305000     137500     12000
48     20     310000     140000     12200
49     20     315000     142500     12400
50     21     320000     145000     12600

 

[Jack Simth]

frankthedm:

The 42 HD Advanced Stone Golem has one benefit and one drawback over the otherwise identical Greater Stone Golem, seperate from the 84,000 gp market price difference:

The 42 HD Advanced Stone Golem gets 7 stat boosts placeable at it's creator's desire, but keeps the non-advanced Slow DC. The Greater Stone Golem has fixed stats, but a much higher Slow DC (31 vs. 17).

So those 7 floating stat boosts on the 42 HD Advaned Stone Golem could cause the 42 HD Advanced Stone Golem to have one of:
1) An AC, initiative, and Reflex save a full 4 points higher than the Greater Stone Golem's (that includes Touch AC) (Odd base Dexterity on both)
2) An attack, damage, and Grapple (well, also trip, bull rush, and a few other things....) bonus four points higher than the Greater Stone Golem's (Odd base Strength on both)
3) A Will save bonus four points higher than the Greater Stone Golem's (odd base Wisdom on both)
4) Look prettier (Charisma 8 vs. Charisma 1 - no real mechanical effects of note for a critter that mindlessly attacks).
5) Some combination of the above (+3 Dex, +3 Str, +1 Wis would give +2 AC/Initiative/Reflex, +2 Attack, Damage, Grapple, +1 Will save, for instance).

Now, that's probably not worth the Slow save DC, nor the cost difference, nor the CR difference... but it's there.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

so would you use the crafting rules for construction of the body then in terms of time frame?

Using a craft calculator, assuming the creator has a +8 Int Bonus, 20 ranks in Armorsmith, +10 in associated bonuses (+38 skill check) would have to spend between 862 - 1282 days to complete the crafting process. Let's say they voluntarily increase the DC to 40, it's still 431 - 625 days.

If there is a team of 20 workers all helping the craftsman, (each providing a +2 aid bonus) and a voluntary increase to DC 90 it's still over a hundred days to craft.

 

[Jack Simth]

Well, at caster level 19, you could theoretically use Fabricate to make the body for a normal stone golem (3,000 pounds of granite has a volume of approximately 18.5 cubic feet). Have fun Fabricating a Greater Stone Golem pre-epic (unless your DM lets you do so section by section).

With the Druid's Soften Earth and Stone, combined with Break Enchantment to restore it, you could theoretically reduce the time.... but yes, ouch, that'll take a while with Craft.