Cosmology: material plane and plane of spirits and dreams

[candidus_cogitens]

I am creating a setting in which the cosmology will be composed of a material plane, and a spirit/dream world. There are numerous possibilities about how this may work. I have not fleshed it out very much, but I was hoping to start a discussion here that would help. I really want dreaming to be a prominent feature of the adventure.

The spirit world would be both the land of the dead and of dreams. Travel in the material world is highly unpredictable and may entail some risk of becoming a pemanent resident. Living folk tend to be frightened of dreams for this reason. Devout persons of certain religions are loathe to speak about their dreams. They do not deny that dreams contain real messages, but they view such messages with distrust (largely because they do not know the obscure art of dream interpretation).

What rules might govern the spirit world?
Do the players actually shift into the spirit world when they fall asleep?
Do gods reside there?
What rules govern dream interpretation?
Should lucid dreaming be a seperate skill (as in the Manual of the Planes)?
Should the spirit world resemble the Astral plane, the celestial plane, the ethereal plane, Hades, Limbo, "the Region of Dreams" from MotP, the Spirit world from OA, or a mixture of all of these?

Any ideas would be MUCH appreciated.

 

[dave_o]

I LIKE TO SNIP!

What rules govern the spirit world?
For this, I'd go the route of some sort of deific decree -- much like the Ten Commandments. Things like "A spirit shall not do this...", or "A spirit will always do this..." I'd do rules for them concerning hurting the living, influencing the living, etc.

Do the players actually shift into the spirit world when they fall asleep?
Yes!

Do gods reside there?
No, since I think your spirit world should be the Astral -- so they live in the respective Outer Planes.

What rules govern dream interpretation?
Metaphors, metaphors, metaphors. You could come across a vision of a snake coiling around a fox. What could it mean? Maybe Jake the Snake and the druid with the fox animal companion are in a relationship. Maybe Jake the Snake is going to kill that druid. Maybe the Snake cult is going to attack, or get in bed with, the druids. Who knows?

Should lucid dreaming be a seperate skill (as in the Manual of the Planes)?
Yeah.

Should the spirit world resemble the Astral plane, the celestial plane, the ethereal plane, Hades, Limbo, "the Region of Dreams" from MotP, the Spirit world from OA, or a mixture of all of these?
Astral, methinks.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm doing something like this in my new campaign world - except I'm using Faerie, Dream, and the Plane of Shadow. The Plane of Shadow is a plane of the dead as well as of the Unseelie, and both Faerie and Shadow have ties to Dream.

What rules might govern the spirit world?

It being Dream, you can be fairly fast and loose with it. Check out Occult Lore by Atlas Games - it has a whole chapter on Dreams and Dream Magic, including rules. It's worth checking out for detailed rules, if you need them

Do the players actually shift into the spirit world when they fall asleep?

I would treat it somewhat like the Border Ethereal, with each individuals dream being a seperate "Border Ethereal" kind of situation, and with a deeper "True Dreamland" that can be reached if you have the skills or the right magic. To reach another person's dreams, you'd have to use magic, or travel through the deeper dreamlands from your own dreams. I'd give someone minor bonuses in their own dream - although they wouldn't be a match for a skilled dreamer.

Do gods reside there?

Maybe a few - in my game only the Goddess of Dreams lives there.

Should lucid dreaming be a seperate skill (as in the Manual of the Planes)?

That's how Occult Lore treats it, too. If Dreaming is a big feature of your game, I would say yes, otherwise you could make it a Spellcraft or knowledge (arcana) check. I'm leaning towards seperate skill in my game, though I'm generally not fond of creating new skills.

Should the spirit world resemble the Astral plane, the celestial plane, the ethereal plane, Hades, Limbo, "the Region of Dreams" from MotP, the Spirit world from OA, or a mixture of all of these?

I would lean more towards the Spirit World from OA, but being Dream, it should be mutable.

In my game, Psionics are Dream-related, and the Dream plane takes the place of the Astral Plane. This causes Psionics to have very different secondary effects than in a standard setting (you summon nightmares from Dream instead of Astral Constructs, for example), but doesn't actually change the rules at all.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Thanks for the ideas! I will borrow many of them.

What can a PC actually accomplish in his nightly adventures in the spirit world? If he kills a beast in his dream, does he gain experience points? Why might a group of PC's want to do any adventuring among the spirits?

 

[Moe Ronalds]

What rules might govern the spirit world?

I'd say the rules are mostly the same as they are in the real world- except easier to bend and break through sheer will (ala the Matrix). I'd also say that you can't joinin someone else's dream easily, and that if you do wish to enter someone else's dream s eries of opposed will saves would be in order.

Do the players actually shift into the spirit world when they fall asleep?

But of course. Alternatively, maybe those closely tied to dreams (magic users, or anyone else deemed "special") can manifest fully, and actively travel the plane of dreams, whereas normal people are half there, half not.

Do gods reside there?

Maybe not all the time, but the field of dreams could be a nice place for the gods to waste time and entertain themselves.

What rules govern dream interpretation?

As above, metaphors. Also, you may want to develope a prestige class or maybe just a skill/feat set around dream interpretation. (Call me now, at Elminster's psychic hotline!)

Should lucid dreaming be a seperate skill (as in the Manual of the Planes)?

I'd say yes, but I'd allow it untrained as well. IE, anyone could potentially effect their dreams, but the real major stuff is difficult without propper training.

Should the spirit world resemble the Astral plane, the celestial plane, the ethereal plane, Hades, Limbo, "the Region of Dreams" from MotP, the Spirit world from OA, or a mixture of all of these?

I'd say all of these, and I'd throw in the "lower" planes as well, to show the origin of nightmares. (In fact, you could rule that that's just what all fiends are- bad dreams that can materialize now and then in the real world).

 

[Stormrunner]

Green Ronin's _Shamans_ book has a lot of excellent material on these topics.
Get books on shamanism from the library. A surprising number of concepts we Westerners usually think of in connection with other mythologies (the World tree, chakras, ki/chi powers) are a part of shamanism too.
Other references I use a lot:
GURPS Spirits
Hidden Paths: Shamans (Ars Magica)
Mage:The Ascension splatbooks (esp. Dreamspeakers and Verdana)
Werewolf:The Apocalypse tribal/racial splatbooks (the whole Garou mythology is strongly shamanic) plus Umbra:The Velvet Shadow (the Werewolf spirit world splatbook)
The land of Faerie as depicted in Lord Dunsany's books has some strong resemblances to the shamanic spirit-world.

 

[Tonguez]

One of my old unfinished low magic campaigns centered around attempts by an Erl-King* to gain control of the realm of Dreams and through it the Material Realm.

Basically in it the Dreams of Mortals generate 'Phantasm - the stuff of Dreams' from which Fae are formed and which powerful spirits (gods) and spellcasters can control.

The Realm of Dreams contained both positive dreams and negative nightmares (seelie/unseelie fae respectively).
The Dead who had not past 'Beyond' also dwelt here some in 'Blissful ignorance' and some in 'Torment'. There was also a third group - the 'Depraved' who were mortals who had become lost in the Dreams and gone insane (these became Goblins and Ghouls (not undead) - the Bogeyman and the Jack the Ripper were both Ghouls imc

Anyway with this background in mind

What rules might govern the spirit world?
The Seelie and Unseelie courts have pretty much served to maintain balance in the realm of Dreams though each strives to gain an upper hand. As creatures composed of 'Phantasm' Fae are dependent on the Dreams of Mortals for their very survival and as such their rivalry is kept in check as it can not be allowed to spill over and harm the Material Realm too greatly.

Beyond the Viel which is the Realm of Dreams there are other Spirits, even gods beyond the comprehension of mortals who maintain the final overview of creation

Do the players actually shift into the spirit world when they fall asleep?

Absolutely the tingling sensation that one sometimes gets when they awaken is a seepage of their own Phantasm. When mortals sleep they enter the realm via their Phantasm form (which might be any form at all) but are not conciously there - they are like Ethereal beings in the Material Plane. Only with some kind of Lucidity (magical/pyschic/Fae) can they become Concious in the Realm of Dreams. Once Concious they can have real impact (and gain XP)...

Do gods reside there?

See above - the gods lie Beyond the Dreams


What rules govern dream interpretation?

Anything goes. Phantasm is entirely mutable and as the stuff of Dreams and Nightmares can be altered by thought, emotion or whimsy.

Should lucid dreaming be a seperate skill (as in the Manual of the Planes)?
Yes. But have untrained require a Wis check to not panic/go insane. Of course the problem with Lucid dreamers is that concious though in the Realm of Dreams attracts attention...


Should the spirit world resemble the Astral plane,

I say have it resemble whatever you desire...

 

[BSF]

Occult Lore by Penumbra has some great stuff on Dreams!
The Shaman's Handbook by Green Ronin has good stuff too!

Both of these are already mentioned, but I am seconding the suggestion.

I am putting together a cosmology where the Faerie, the Dream and the Spirit realms all exist. Right now, I am leaning toward having everything that dreams enter the Dream World. But, it is similar to the Astral in that your dream is merely a projection. Most dreamers cannot control their dreams. But, there will be trained dreamers, see the above books. Trained dreamers may be able to affect others, and the Dream and the Nightmare spells are good examples of magic that works on the Dream World.

I still haven't decided if there will be any gods that reside in the Dream World.

As for how the Dream World works, I will be leaning heavily on the interpretation in Occult Lore. Basically, Dreamers have the ability to change the world around them, but they expend energy to do so. This is represented by having Dream Points. Skilled Dreamers have more Dream Points and Oneiromancers are the best equipped to work in dreams. I still need to graft the Shaman into the mix.

I am interested in hearing how other people are handling this, so I might subscribe to this particular thread.

 

[Oaken25]

If you can find it still, there is some good info about the world of dreams, in the Wheel of Time RPG for d20.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Thanks to BardStephenFox for explaining a little bit about how the system from Occult Lore works. I would like to know a little more about that. I'd also like to know more about Green Ronin's book and how it governs dream travel. I don't want to buy a new book unless I think it is going to actually help.

Regarding the Shaman, I am considering substituting it for the cleric (partly because I just hate clerics). The Shaman from OA was the one I had in mind. But I want to substitute something for the animal companion, something a bit more associated with dreams or spirits. Any ideas there?