Command Spell Question

[Larcen]

My cleric has grown to love all the mind-controlling enchantments available to him. When using spells in battle, he almost exclusively uses Command, Random Action, and Hold Person. I find this type of clean victory over my opponents much cooler, and more to my character's style, than a flashy damage spell could ever be. It's really amazing how many tough opponents have such weak WILL saves.

Anyway, on to my question at hand:

Can a Command spell be issued along with visual clues? Let me explain by using examples.

If I hold up a cup full of some liquid and then Command the target to "Drink!", would he grab the offered cup or simply grab the waterskin from his belt and drink from it, thereby satifying the letter but not the intent on my Command?

Another example: If I look at someone, point to someone else, and then Command the first person to "Attack!", will the target of the spell pick up on my visual clue and go attack the person I was pointing to or just attack whatever HE wanted, again satisfying the letter, but not the intent of my Command?

Yet another example. The target is on a rooftop above me and I am on the ground. If I point to a spot on the ground in front of me and Command him to "Jump!", will he take a leap off the roof to try and hit the spot I pointed to, or will he just jump up and down on one leg on the roof in relative safety?

Note that in the last example a simple "Come!" would not have the desired affect as the target could then just take his time and climb down to get to me, or find the nearest ladder or staircase for a round. "Jump!" is a definate, immediate risk.

Also, using the last example, if I had Commanded him to "Fall!" and point to the ground in front of me, would he fall to the ground in front of me, or just fall at his own feet, still safely on the roof?

The same could be asked if I was on the rooftop with him and pointed off the edge and Commanded "Fall!", or "Jump!".

I am sure we can all come up with more examples along these lines.

When responding, please bear in mind that as powerful as these tactics are, commanding a person to "Die!" within melee range is pretty much an instant kill anyway, since you can then usually follow up with a Coup de Grace (sp?) next round. At least I think you can...that one round duration can be so hair-splitting sometimes. At the very least one of your buddys can take the helpless person out in the time available.

Thoughts?

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I don't think the hand gestures will affect the target since the spell has no somatic component. So the more vague the command, the less likely it is that the target will do exactly what you intended.

The one round duration means he is affected until the beginning of your next round. If you commanded him to "die," he would drop and be helpless until the beginning of your next turn, upon which he will no longer be helpless. He cannot act, though, until his initiative comes up.

 

[Larcen]

I think I would have to agree with you Dr. Zoom.
I was just thinking that if you COULD use visual clues then the following would be possible, which would be BAD:

You hold up a large card that says "KILL YOURSELF" to a person that can read and then you Command "Obey."

.....ouch. I can see lots of problems here if you can use visual clues.

Oh! Wait a minute! Forget the card. Why can't someone just Command "Obey!" and THEN order the guy to kill himself? I mean, if he missed his save he has to then obey you for a full round right?

I know this is a misuse of the spell, but rules-wise why would this not be possible? Is it because the "Obey" command is too vague and the target doesn't really know WHO to obey?

Also, on the one round duration thing, what you are saying is that there is no way the casting cleric can get an attack on the helpless person who just "died" for a round, barring Haste effects? That by the time the cleric can act again, the target is no longer helpless?

Well, here is my thinking. The guy is helpless AFTER the cleric did his action and cast the Command. So keeping the same order of things next round, why would't the target stop being helpless AFTER the cleric got his attack action? Seems like the cleric is going first in both cases:

Cleric casts Command --> Person "dies" helpless

exactly one round later

Cleric attacks --> Person comes out of it.

See what I mean?

 

[shilsen]

If you commanded him to "die," he would drop and be helpless until the beginning of your next turn, upon which he will no longer be helpless.

Are you sure about this? I think there was a Sage ruling that a Command to die would not render a character helpless, and hence, the target of the Command could not be CDG-ed.

 

[Larcen]

Are you sure about this? I think there was a Sage ruling that a Command to die would not render a character helpless, and hence, the target of the Command could not be CDG-ed.

Interesting shilsen, I did not know about this ruling. So what then did the Sage say would happen on a Command to "die" if not catatonia?

Incidently, the SRD has not been fixed then:

==========================
Command

Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Clr 1
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The character give the subject a one-word command, which she obeys to the best of her ability. A very reasonable command causes the subject to suffer a penalty
on the saving throw (from –1 to –4, at the DM’s discretion). Typical commands are "Flee," "Die" (which causes the subject to feign death), "Halt," "Run," "Stop,"
"Fall," "Go," "Leave," "Surrender," and "Rest." (A command of "Suicide" fails because "suicide" is generally used as a noun, not as a command.)

==============================

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Originally posted by Larcen:
Oh! Wait a minute! Forget the card. Why can't someone just Command "Obey!" and THEN order the guy to kill himself? I mean, if he missed his save he has to then obey you for a full round right?

Wrong.

The spell is a one-word command. It does not control someone like charm person or domination does. Obey is simply an almost meaningless one-word command. The target will not be under compulsion to "obey" your commands (plural).

Well, here is my thinking. The guy is helpless AFTER the cleric did his action and cast the Command. So keeping the same order of things next round, why would't the target stop being helpless AFTER the cleric got his attack action? Seems like the cleric is going first in both cases:

Cleric casts Command --> Person "dies" helpless

exactly one round later

Cleric attacks --> Person comes out of it.

See what I mean?

Sure I see what you mean. But it does not work that way. Check out the PH, page 121, under "The Combat Round," where it says: Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before* the same initiative count that they began on."

*emphasis mine

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Are you sure about this? I think there was a Sage ruling that a Command to die would not render a character helpless, and hence, the target of the Command could not be CDG-ed.

I have not heard nor seen anything like this from the sage. I looked in the FAQ and didn't see anything for this spell like that. It could be that the target merely plays dead since the spell will not kill him, and thus he would not be helpless. I can live with that if that is what the sage says. What about a command to sleep? Same thing?

OTOH, why should the spell not be able to make someone helpless? Other first level spells can do this, like the arcane Sleep spell for instance. I would be interested to see the sage's ruling. Do you remember where it can be found?

 

[Larcen]

Sure I see what you mean. But it does not work that way. Check out the PH, page 121, under "The Combat Round," where it says: Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before* the same initiative count that they began on."

*emphasis mine

Weird.

First chance I get I am using an Extended Command then. It'll be worth making the spell second level for that extra round I'll need to CDG the dude.

 

[shilsen]

I have not heard nor seen anything like this from the sage. I looked in the FAQ and didn't see anything for this spell like that. It could be that the target merely plays dead since the spell will not kill him, and thus he would not be helpless. I can live with that if that is what the sage says. What about a command to sleep? Same thing?

OTOH, why should the spell not be able to make someone helpless? Other first level spells can do this, like the arcane Sleep spell for instance. I would be interested to see the sage's ruling. Do you remember where it can be found?

Unfortunately, I can't recall where I saw/heard of it. I just checked the FAQ too, just in case that was it, but not so. I guess unless somebody else comes up with a reference, I'll presume I was mistaken.

 

[Voadam]

Zoom,

The target can only do things within their ability. Instant sleep is not within most people's ability.

Also that is all the sleep spell can do and it is limited by hit dice in a manner that command is not.

It is odd that suicide can not be used as a command because it is not usually a command but die is a valid command. For sleep would they feign sleep? Fake snoring but one eye open?

I would rule that the gesture is not part of the one word command and clever opponents can jump up and down instead of over the edge of the roof. Placing a one word command in the middle of a sentence does not mean they must obey the sentence just the one word, (not the word in context).

Obey. I would rule they could then say to themselves, "OK just obey the dictates of your own heart and you are "obeying", My heart says get him."

Unambiguous physical commands are probably best, give them room to interpret and you are giving them room to follow your command in a way you do not like.