D&D 5E Combining the sorcerer and wizard spell lists?

[doctorhook]

5E sorcerers and wizards have separate spell lists. Mostly the sorcerer list is a subset of the wizard list, but the spells removed seem arbitrary. Obviously some utility spells and rituals would be poor choices for sorcerers, but other than that I can't see why these lists are separate. What would be the harm in combining the two lists, like 3E/3.5E did? Thanks for your input!

 

[Jester David]

There's precious few wizard spells that a sorcerer doesn't get that make sense for all sorcerers. And having separate lists means there's the option for sorcerer-only spells.

--edit--

What would be the harm in combining the two lists?
Well, it would make the sorcerer more unwieldy to level, dramatically increasing the spells they can choose from with every supplement, and not every spell is guaranteed to fit the sorcerer, either mechanically or in terms of flavour. And not every spell is equally useful as one of the fewer spells a sorcerer gets, or synergizes well with the metamagic options of the sorcerer.

That said, individual spells are not likely to be too offensive. As a DM I would happily allow a sorcerer PC to take an option from the wizard (or even warlock) list, provided the option fit the character and their sorcerous origin. Sorcerers strike me as a class where its characters should be unique, so it makes sense that not every sorcerer should be able to do the exact same things as other sorcerers.

 

[MoonSong]

There's precious few wizard spells that a sorcerer doesn't get that make sense for all sorcerers. And having separate lists means there's the option for sorcerer-only spells.

Well, except that:

No sorcerer only spells so far...


And why do any of these spells not make sense for a sorcerer? (this is the list of wizard spells not allowed to sorcerers)

Protection from Evil and Good -????
Tasha's Hideous Laughter - can't be funny?
Longstrider - can't be fast?
Tenser's Floating Disk - why can't I do this?
Illusory Script - too scholarly?
Identify - you mean I can't provide this utility to the group?
Grease - Really?
Unseen Servant - No floating disk/servant fly everywhere combo?
Find Familiar - no pet raven? why no pet raven?
Alarm - why can't I be alert
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon - NO buffing allies?
Arcane Lock - No way to seal doors?
Melf's Acid Arrow - Can use melf minute meteors but Acid arrow is somehow off limits?
Rope Trick - A versatile multi-use spell I cannot use
Ray of Enfeeblement - I don't get why this isn't allowed
Gentle Repose - ok very situational
Flaming Sphere - which is the pretext for this one?
Nystul's Magic Aura - magic inccarnate but cannot disguise auras
Continual Flame - again
Phantom Steed - why no phantom ponies?
Nondetection - why can't I hide
Glyph of Warding - scholarly flavor?
Bestow Curse - why can't I curse people?
Remove Curse - why can't i uncurse people?
Feign Death - maybe too situational?
Sending - no long distance calls for you?
Magic Circle - maybe too ritualistic
Animate Dead - no toying with death? I thought magic was fun
Vampiric Touch - tell me why this makes no sense
Leomund's Tiny Hut - no way to get any refuge?
Leomund's Secret Chest -ok, this one is expensive
Locate Creature - no divinations?
Stone Shape - no earth bending for you?
Arcane Eye
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate - why can't I be a magical artisan?
Conjure Minor Elementals - again no pets ?
Control Water - no water bending?
Fire Shield - tell me why this is off limits
Phantasmal Killer - no toying with people's mind?
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Hallucinatory Terrain
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound - no pets?
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Contact Other Plane - again, no long distance calls?
Modify Memory
Conjure Elemental
Wall of Force
Scrying - no divinations?
Geas - Again, no cursing people?
Legend Lore - ok this one looks not sorcerous
Dream - no dreamwalking
Passwall - no moving walls
Bigby's Hand -???
Mislead
Planar Binding - I'm a magical creature but can't do deals with other magical creatures?
Programmed Illusion - no high level illusions?
Drawmij's Instant Summons - expensive as heck, granted
Flesh to Stone - why can't I stone people?
Contingency
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere - another one
Create Undead
Wall of Ice
Guards and Wards
Sequester
Mordenkainen's Sword
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion - ok, fairly speciffic, but why can't I even get a nice place to crash?
Simulacrum
Forcecage - and this is off-limits why?
Symbol
Mirage Arcane
Project Image
Maze
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone - yeah, less broken if only the wizard can do it
Control Weather
Antimagic Field - why?
Feeblemind
Mind Blank
Demiplane - I can't even summon a house and wizards get their own personal dimension?
Telepathy - Why is this not sorcerous?
True Polymorph
Foresight
Prismatic Wall
Astral Projection
Imprisonment - again why can't I curse people?
Weird
Shapechange - dragon blooded but can't turn into a dragon?

 

[doctorhook]

Well, except that:

No sorcerer only spells so far...

But check out warding wind in Princes of the Apocalypse: it's for Bards, Druids, Sorcerers, but not wizards.

I thank ya for that list, btw. Honestly, the sorcerer list seems like an arbitrary subset of the wizard list... but then I'm not really convinced that the sorcerer received the same degree of design-love that some other classes did.

 

[CapnZapp]

The separate lists certainly could have been an argument for having separate classes, despite how the 5E [wizard] killed the 3E sorcerer and looted all the good stuff.

Of course, defining your class as "not having what the other guy gets" is not an especially fun definition.

But then again, the 5E sorcerer isn't much fun to most people.


All is not lost however: there can still appear cool subclasses down the road. Oh well.

 

[Jester David]

Well, except that:

No sorcerer only spells so far...

As mentioned, we haven't even made it to the first real expansion product and there's already a sorcerer only spell. More will come.
Sorcerers are differentiated by their spell list. If they're just wizards with spontaneous casting them they don't need to be a class, just an alternate form of casting ala spell points. The different spell list justifies their existence.

Which makes senseas they're only ever going to gave a couple spells of each level. You don't want to be the sorcerer that casts phantom steed again and again in combat. The spells wizards choose to learn from scrolls or copied from spellbooks - the ones no wizards opts to auto-learn - don't need to be on a sorcerer's spell list.
And very often there'll just be a set choice. When blaster sorcerers gain 3rd level spells, they always take either fireball or lightning bolt. So you really only pick from a giant list for their *other* 3rd level spell. That'd be needless. Having too many options just bogs down selection.

 

[MoonSong]

As mentioned, we haven't even made it to the first real expansion product and there's already a sorcerer only spell. More will come.

One and it is optional, contrast with the huge list up.

Sorcerers are differentiated by their spell list. If they're just wizards with spontaneous casting them they don't need to be a class, just an alternate form of casting ala spell points. The different spell list justifies their existence.

There are other ways to justify the class existence beyond the have nots. And sorcerer hasn't only been "another casting method", sorcerer is "a caster with another story" which is enough.

Which makes senseas they're only ever going to gave a couple spells of each level. You don't want to be the sorcerer that casts phantom steed again and again in combat. The spells wizards choose to learn from scrolls or copied from spellbooks - the ones no wizards opts to auto-learn - don't need to be on a sorcerer's spell list.

If I'm the sorcerer who knows phantom steed, then I fight using cantrips or a weapon, saving my magic for exploration and utility.

And very often there'll just be a set choice. When blaster sorcerers gain 3rd level spells, they always take either fireball or lightning bolt. So you really only pick from a giant list for their *other* 3rd level spell. That'd be needless. Having too many options just bogs down selection.

[/QUOTE]

Assuming too much, like sorcerers being swept under the rug as "only blasters need to apply", should I be grateful because my favorite class got to make a token appereance that doesn't work for 99% of the characters I've made using that class? (Characters that are absolutely impossible any other way?)

 

[Jester David]

One and it is optional, contrast with the huge list up.

The only non-optional rules is Basic. The entire sorcerer class is optional.

There are other ways to justify the class existence beyond the have nots. And sorcerer hasn't only been "another casting method", sorcerer is "a caster with another story" which is enough.

An alternate story isn't a class, it's a character. It's a backstory for how your character learned magic.

We don't need a defiler class, a sha' ir class, Dragonlance primal sorcerer and moon god wizard classes, a blood mage class, a Merlin class, etc.

After all, magic is both learned and genetic in many, many different forms of fiction (from Harry Potter to the Dresden Files) so there's nothing stopping the sorcerer and wizard from being the same mechanical implementation of different stories.
Where magic comes from and how people become spellcasters is a campaign decision, a world decision, not a generic system decision.

If I'm the sorcerer who knows phantom steed, then I fight using cantrips or a weapon, saving my magic for exploration and utility.

If it's that vital to your character concept, ask your DM to put that spell on the list. Bam. Fixed. But that very niche concept of sorcerous cavalry is not so common that every single sorcerer needs the option of having that spell.

Back in 3e, even with access to the full list of wizard spells, most sorcerers only drew from a select list. It was self-limiting. Most of the spell options were trap options. It slowed down levelling as the sorcerer went through this giant list of spells 75% of which were unneeded and irrelevant, looking for the few gems. That's unneeded and awkward, a barrier to play.

Assuming too much, like sorcerers being swept under the rug as "only blasters need to apply", should I be grateful because my favorite class got to make a token appearance that doesn't work for 99% of the characters I've made using that class? (Characters that are absolutely impossible any other way?)

Sorcerers do have a range of builds beyond blaster. But each theme really only needs two spells in each level. A third spell is a tease, because it can only be learned at the cost of a higher level spell.
To learn that third 3rd-level illusion or enchantment spell you need to sacrifice a 4th-level or 5th-level spell known.

Similarly, spells you only need to cast once a day are a waste for sorcerers. When you know only one 3rd-level spell but can cast it twice, if you only ever need to use it once that's a wasted slot. Admittedly, 5e helps with this a little, as you can cast a lower level spell using a higher slot, but it doesn't feel as flashy or effective. It's better to just get a spell that you want to cast 2+ times per day.

 

[MoonSong]

The only non-optional rules is Basic. The entire sorcerer class is optional.

Basic is Basic, Standard is Standard, and in Standard the sorcerer is not considered optional. And more so, the PotA spells will eventually phase out.

An alternate story isn't a class, it's a character. It's a backstory for how your character learned magic.

We don't need a defiler class, a sha' ir class, Dragonlance primal sorcerer and moon god wizard classes, a blood mage class, a Merlin class, etc.

After all, magic is both learned and genetic in many, many different forms of fiction (from Harry Potter to the Dresden Files) so there's nothing stopping the sorcerer and wizard from being the same mechanical implementation of different stories.
Where magic comes from and how people become spellcasters is a campaign decision, a world decision, not a generic system decision.

I agree that it could be good to have a single generic spellcasting class, but the wizard isn't that class, it is an extremely specific version of what a spellcaster can be, and it is very limiting.

If it's that vital to your character concept, ask your DM to put that spell on the list. Bam. Fixed. But that very niche concept of sorcerous cavalry is not so common that every single sorcerer needs the option of having that spell.

But that is an exclusionary vision, and it won't always work. And this is a thread about the effects of just using all wizard spells for the sorcerer -ask the DM won't work if the DM is the one asking-. And how do you know how common or uncommon it is? And how the designers would know it? the sorcerer wasn't on the open playtest and except for the last survey they have asked exactly zero feedback on the sorcerer.

Back in 3e, even with access to the full list of wizard spells, most sorcerers only drew from a select list. It was self-limiting. Most of the spell options were trap options. It slowed down levelling as the sorcerer went through this giant list of spells 75% of which were unneeded and irrelevant, looking for the few gems. That's unneeded and awkward, a barrier to play.

But traps imply optimization, not everybody optimizes, it is possible to have fun with suboptimal things, and on top optimization can have different goals. What is a trap for a player, is fun for another one. And this "most sorcerers" cannot be proved (or disproved)

Sorcerers do have a range of builds beyond blaster.

Ok, show me how to make a 100% utility caster that is useful and not make your party regret they didn't bring a wizard, a charming high level illusionist, an effective gish, an eldritch artisan, a friend to all living things sorcerer, a sorcerous thief, a caster killer sorcerer and a hunter sorcerer. All effective at all levels. And that is without entering into longer term effects or reality shaping.

But each theme really only needs two spells in each level. A third spell is a tease, because it can only be learned at the cost of a higher level spell.
To learn that third 3rd-level illusion or enchantment spell you need to sacrifice a 4th-level or 5th-level spell known.

Or you could relearn a lower level spell, having two good spells for the concept, but lacking the third only makes you inferior to the wizard who can casually dabble in your niche and outdo you. This is the thing, sorcerers are niche grabbing casters, but lacking access to niche-filling spells reduces the number of niches you can occupy effectively.

Similarly, spells you only need to cast once a day are a waste for sorcerers. When you know only one 3rd-level spell but can cast it twice, if you only ever need to use it once that's a wasted slot. Admittedly, 5e helps with this a little, as you can cast a lower level spell using a higher slot, but it doesn't feel as flashy or effective. It's better to just get a spell that you want to cast 2+ times per day.

Or you can relearn a lower level spell and have two spells to chose in that slot, really, being able to relearn spells each level is a boon, at certain point lower level slots are more useful for metamagic than for spells, and if a low level spell is very good, you may want to cast it in a higher level slot anyway. And isn't mage armor one of these spells you only cast once a day?

 

[Remathilis]

Well, except that:

No sorcerer only spells so far...

Enhance Ability (2nd level) is a Cleric, Druid, Bard, and Sorcerer spell, but NOT a Wizard Spell.