Combat Reflexes a Rogue Must-Have Feat?

[Mistwell]

Forked from this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3349779#post3349779

Where this was said:

Pretty much every combat-oriented character takes the Power Attack feat. It's not that it's too good to not take it, rather that it gives the fighter character needed flexibility. One can say something similar for Combat Expertise. And Combat Reflexes vis-a-vis Rogues. But those are for other threads. (emphasis added)

Why is combat reflexes considered a must-have for rogues?

Sure, the feat gives extra attacks under certain circumstances, and any feat that gives extra attacks is useful. But is it useful often enough? And given it seems rare that it would apply when an opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC or is flat-footed, sneak attack will usually not apply. It CAN apply, like if a foe is running past you, or if you are invisible or hidden (arguably) when they go past you, and a few other times, but most of the time it will just be a normal attack. And normal attacks for rogues are not all that potent most of the time.

So, is it because it gives access to more powerful feats for a rogue? From the books I have in front of me, I found this list of feats that have combat reflexes as a prerequisite: Expert Tactician, Defensive Throw, Hold the Line, Rapid Stunning, Hindering Opportunist, Stalwart Defense, Robliar's Gambit, Vexing Flanker, and Adaptable Flanker.

Of that list, only the last two seem particularly potent for a rogue. Is that why the above statement was made, because combat reflexes gives you the option of picking up the three-feat chain that ends with Adaptable Flanker?

What am I missing here? I like combat reflexes, and think it is useful. But a must-have feat for a rogue? I am not seeing it. Enlighten me on your best tactics for combat reflexes and what might make it so darn useful that just about any rogue will want this feat at some point.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I play rogues often, and have only taken it once. Really most useful for a 2-handed weapon fighter, I would think. The new book, Complete Scoundrel, has a feat called Savvy Rogue, though. It adds benefits to Rogue special abilities and the benefit for opportunist is the ability to use it as many times per round as you have AoO, but still only once per opponent per round. Could be awesome, but hasn't been out long enough to make a splash. Also, I'm not familiar with the PHB 2 feats, as I hate the book. They may be the reason.

Heck, my Ranger's wolf gets a free trip after doing damage on AoO. I think combat reflexes would be immensly more useful on him than on any of my previous rohue builds.

 

[Nail]

What am I missing here? I like combat reflexes, and think it is useful. But a must-have feat for a rogue? I am not seeing it.

FWIW, I agree with you.

Adaptive Flanker is good.....but Combat Reflexes by itself isn't all that great for a Rogue.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

For me, Combat Reflexes is only really worth it if you have reach, or a reach weapon. Otherwise you only get AoOs against people who shoot arrows or cast spells next to you(and a five foot step negates that) or people who move past you. Overall, I would consider it for a few seconds before taking something else. There are a lot of feats that wouldgive a stronger ability that could be sued all the time, not in a few special circumstances.

 

[Nail]

It adds benefits to Rogue special abilities and the benefit for opportunist is the ability to use it as many times per round as you have AoO, but still only once per opponent per round.

Nope.

The class ability Opportunist only allows the use 1/round. Not 1/rd/opponent.

 

[bestone]

Nope.

The class ability Opportunist only allows the use 1/round. Not 1/rd/opponent.

Savvy rogue feat

opportunist: You can use this feat as many times per round as you have aoo's. But no more than once per creature per round. Each use of the opportunist ability counts as an attack of opportunity.


StreamOfTheSky is correct, if you read his whole post, he states its about the complete scoundrel rogue feat, savvy rogue

 

[Piratecat]

Bestone, I bet you could have made your point considerably less rudely, eh? There's no need to be condescending about it when someone is mistaken; people are mistaken here all the time! that's aprt of the fun of discussing rules.

Piratecat
Admin

 

[bestone]

Bestone, I bet you could have made your point considerably less rudely, eh? There's no need to be condescending about it when someone is mistaken; people are mistaken here all the time! that's aprt of the fun of discussing rules.

Piratecat
Admin

Your right, apologies.

 

[Quartz]

It's simply that Dex is the prime stat for rogues, and Combat Reflexes works off Dex. This makes rogues the best characters to take advantage of AoOs. Consider the fighter bull-rushing an opponent into striking range of the rogue. Consider the rogue flanking a group of opponents - the character can make their primary Sneak Attack and then if one should one step back or cast a spell, the rogue gets an AoO. Consider the rogue in a general melee. It's a very useful feat for a team player.

 

[hong]

However, the thing with AoOs is that they're not under your control. Someone else has to do something to provoke them, and IME it's extremely rare that you'll get the chance to make more than 1 AoO in a round. Heck, even getting that 1 AoO is already pretty uncommon.

And you don't get an AoO if someone 5' steps and casts, or 5' steps and attacks with a bow.