Combat Expertise, Full Defense Actions, and Fighting Defensively

[Creamsteak]

I was looking over these three rules, and I've got a couple questions I'd like somewhat of a hand with.

1) Combat Expertise requires you to make an attack, so I assume it would be reasonable for a character that only takes a normal move (and has a proficient weapon drawn) can still keep expertise up even without making an attack. Otherwise, it seems like it sometimes would be wiser to swing for no apparent reason during a round.

2) Full defense is shown up by combat expertise alone, and especially if you can perform combat expertise with fighting defensively. I understand how this makes sense by comparison with a PC who is trained (has the feat combat expertise) compared to one without, but why wouldn't a PC with expertise be better off on full defense instead of one fighting defensively? I guess you simply have to make an attempt at combat expertise and fighting defensively to replace it, but it still seems odd to me.

3) Defending weapons and Expertise, do they stack? Talk about sword being better than shield...

*) All of these are versus both ranged and melee weapons? Is that true or did I forget something over time?

 

[Philip]

1) Combat Expertise requires you to make an attack, so I assume it would be reasonable for a character that only takes a normal move (and has a proficient weapon drawn) can still keep expertise up even without making an attack.

It is a bit of a stretch, but I can image ruling that someone who spends a standard action on his combat expertise can actually get the benefit. 'He is swinging his sword in a threatening manner at everyone that approaches', or something to that effect.

2) but why wouldn't a PC with expertise be better off on full defense instead of one fighting defensively?

Sometimes offense is the best defense. But only to people who are trained to do so = Combat Expertise.

3) Defending weapons and Expertise, do they stack? Talk about sword being better than shield...

Defending stacks with all other AC bonusses, according to the DMG, so no problem. Sometimes offense is the best defense, but only to people who are trained to do so and/or have the right equipment

 

[Datt]

You can't stack Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. Since both of those require your to declare an attack or full attack. So the best would be +5 to AC with Combat Expertise.

Also the AC bonuses given by Fighting Defensively, Combat Expertise, and Full Defense are dodge bonuses so they count against all attacks made against you, melee or ranged.

 

[Camarath]

You can't stack Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. Since both of those require your to declare an attack or full attack. So the best would be +5 to AC with Combat Expertise.

Why do you think you can't stack Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise?

 

[Datt]

Because you can't declare 2 attack actions in the same round.

 

[Camarath]

Why do you believe they can't be used on the same attack action?

 

[Datt]

I don't think that 1 action can be used for multiple feats/special abilites.

Kind of like doing a circle kick and a whirlwind attack with 1 full attack action.

 

[Camarath]

When using Circle Kick or Whirlwind Attack you replace of your normal attacks with a special action. Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise modify your normal attack actions. IMO you can use any number of feats and abilities to modify your normal attack actions.

 

[Datt]

Yes you do replace your normal attacks, but it only requires a full attack action to do. So why couldn't you do a circle kick whirlwind attack?


Also I just noticed that in feat description under Normal it says
"A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to
take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class."

To me that says that the Combat Expertise feat replaces fighting defensively.

 

[Camarath]

From SRD
WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.


That is why.