CMB for tying people up?

[Voadam]

So they eliminated use rope and use the combat maneuver bonus+10 for escape artist DCs when trying to escape from being tied up.

I don't mind eliminating use rope as a skill, but I'm not so sure on this as the mechanic for setting the DC. BAB+Str+size mod don't seem particularly appropriate for tying knot skill. Using just the one formula for everything has the benefit of keeping things straightforward in combat but I'm not sure this needs to be done for escaping knots.

Thoughts?

Alternatives?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I'm not overly fond of that mechanic, myself. I'd probably just say binding someone is DC 20 plus Dex mod. DC 30 plus Dex mod if 10 minutes is dedicated to it.

 

[Thondor]

Shrug well it's not extremely realistic but it is simple.

YOu could modify it to BAB+Str+Dex

reasons:
BAB is a measure of your combat skill . . . its also a measure of your general experience. Warrior classes chould be the best at this because their the most likely to resort to mundane means to capture someone as well as use ropes for climbing/sailing.
Strength: the stronger you are the tighter the knots.
Dex: the nimbler you are the better the intricacy of the knots.

not size: simple this doesn't make you better or worse, simply easier to use larger ropes which won't necessarily hold your enemy better

alternative;

Use Escape Artist. if your good at escaping, you should know how to prevent others from doiing so.

 

[Kaisoku]

I'm not sure if you guys are looking at the latest rules...

In the latest Beta rules, it says that if you have your opponent pinned, you can use rope to tie them up, at a +5 bonus to the DC (so default 20 + CMB).
If you try to tie them up while they aren't pinned, it requires a check at -10... this is an extra check you don't need to do normally (since you have them pinned).
The DC would still be the same (15 + CMB + 5 for rope).

Regarding the Str vs Dex, keep in mind you aren't actually picking apart the knot itself. You are trying to wiggle and slide out of the tight bonds. Slip a hand out of a loop, so he can get slack and twist out of the binds.
It would make sense that how tightly you bind him is based on how tight you can pull the ropes.

Then again, if it bothers you that someone with Dex can't make fancy "hog-tie" binds... there is already the feat called Agile Maneuvers that allows the option to use Dex instead of Strength when using CMB. This would make your DCs to get out of the ropes 20 + BAB + Dex + modifiers.

A 10th level Monk with a +5 Dex modifier would have a ~35 DC to break out of his bonds (not including size or feat bonuses).

 

[Voadam]

I'm not sure if you guys are looking at the latest rules...

In the latest Beta rules, it says that if you have your opponent pinned, you can use rope to tie them up, at a +5 bonus to the DC (so default 20 + CMB).
If you try to tie them up while they aren't pinned, it requires a check at -10... this is an extra check you don't need to do normally (since you have them pinned).
The DC would still be the same (15 + CMB + 5 for rope).

Regarding the Str vs Dex, keep in mind you aren't actually picking apart the knot itself. You are trying to wiggle and slide out of the tight bonds. Slip a hand out of a loop, so he can get slack and twist out of the binds.
It would make sense that how tightly you bind him is based on how tight you can pull the ropes.

Then again, if it bothers you that someone with Dex can't make fancy "hog-tie" binds... there is already the feat called Agile Maneuvers that allows the option to use Dex instead of Strength when using CMB. This would make your DCs to get out of the ropes 20 + BAB + Dex + modifiers.

A 10th level Monk with a +5 Dex modifier would have a ~35 DC to break out of his bonds (not including size or feat bonuses).

Huh, odd. I had read the beta escape artists section but not the grappling pin section in depth.

Page 151 for the pin:

If you have your target pinned or otherwise restrained,
or unconscious, you can use rope to tie them up. This works
like a pin effect, but with a + 5 circumstance bonus to determine
the DC to escape the bonds (making the DC equal to 20
+ your CMB). The ropes do not need to make a check every
round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target,
you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires
a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty.

I think since this is numerically a different set of DCs than the escape artist section that this tieing them up is different than the binding mentioned in the escape artist skill. The tieing up one says it works like a pin and the DCs make sense if they are using the grappling pin DCs as the base instead of the escape artists rope binding DCs.

Page 62 of the beta rules pdf, escape artist DC to escape being bound by ropes:

ESCAPE ARTIST
(DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Your training allows you to slip bonds and escape from
grapples.
Check: The table below gives the DCs to escape various
forms of restraints.
Ropes: The DC of your Escape Artist check is equal to the
binder’s combat maneuver bonus +10.

Breaking a pin can be done each round as a standard action, escaping from being bound by rope takes 1 minute, which means generally not in combat.

Page 129
Str ch DC 23 to burst rope bonds, although the equipment section says that silk rope is tougher with DC 24.

 

[Kaisoku]

I think it's possible they are supposed to be two different situations.

The Ropes/Bindings entry in the Escape Artist skill section is listed alongside "manacles", which only really bind your hands (unless it's wrapped around something, chaining you someplace).

So it's likely that the Escape Artist rules are meant for when someone's hands are bound together, or if they are in a dungeon with their hands attached to chains over their head, etc.
In fact, some of the entries cause conditions like "Entangled"... so it's probably more on this level.

The Grapple section is talking specifically about being "pinned", which is a specific condition. I'd imagine it's like being tied hand and foot together, etc. "Hog-tying". A more severe version of what the Escape Artist section is talking about.

Perhaps it should still be listed in the Escape Artist section though, to remove confusion on the matter.

 

[Kaisoku]

It's also possible that the Escape Artist entry is out of date. It mentions under DCs: "Grappler Grappler's check result"

This is technically incorrect, considering it should be against the 10+CMB according to the Grapple entry.

So the skill entry could definitely use an update.