Cleaving with ranged weapons?

[RigaMortus]

CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.

The first sentance for the description of Cleave suggests that you don't need to kill someone with a melee weapon in order to get the beenfit of Cleave. However, the Cleave itself must be with a melee weapon, the same weapon used to drop the opponent. Could one fire off a bow shot, kill someone, then use the bow as an improvised melee weapon to attack someone next to them for the Cleave?

 

[MerakSpielman]

The extra attack is described as being at the same bonus as the one that dropped the original opponent. I don't think you'll have the same bonus for hitting somebody with non-proficient melee weapon.

 

[mikebr99]

The first sentance for the description of Cleave suggests that you don't need to kill someone with a melee weapon in order to get the beenfit of Cleave. However, the Cleave itself must be with a melee weapon, the same weapon used to drop the opponent. Could one fire off a bow shot, kill someone, then use the bow as an improvised melee weapon to attack someone next to them for the Cleave?

Does that really sound like the way it should work??

Mike

 

[RigaMortus]

It is at the same bonus, you'll just have a -4 to hit from it being an improvised weapon.

IOW, let's say you had a +6 to hit opponent with the bow shot. You'd have that same +6 bonus on the Cleave, then apply the -4 for it being an improvised weapon.

 

[DanMcS]

Go outside. Play in the big blue room for a while.

 

[mikebr99]

It is at the same bonus, you'll just have a -4 to hit from it being an improvised weapon.

IOW, let's say you had a +6 to hit opponent with the bow shot. You'd have that same +6 bonus on the Cleave, then apply the -4 for it being an improvised weapon.

If it's your game (i.e. DM = you)... you are most welcome to allow this...

If you brought this up at my table, I'd be thinking 'your-name' had set in...


Mike

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It is at the same bonus, you'll just have a -4 to hit

Take another look at this. Do you really think it makes sense?

 

[AuraSeer]

No.

 

[RigaMortus]

Take another look at this. Do you really think it makes sense?

Isn't that how bonuses work?

+6 BAB
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Sacred Bonus
etc.

You'd still be attacking with the same +6 base attack bonus, the same +1 WF bonus, the same +1 sacred bonus, and so on... So all the bonuses are the same. The -4 penalty is seperate from these bonuses, they still exist, right? If I take the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon, I still get the +1 WF bonus, don't I?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Isn't that how bonuses work?

+6 BAB
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Sacred Bonus
etc.

You'd still be attacking with the same +6 base attack bonus, the same +1 WF bonus, the same +1 sacred bonus, and so on... So all the bonuses are the same. The -4 penalty is seperate from these bonuses, they still exist, right? If I take the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon, I still get the +1 WF bonus, don't I?

No, it doesn't work that way, you don't get to separate your penalties out of your attack bonus to show that the positives are the same. Only the final bonus matters. To illustrate,

+6 BAB +1 Weapon Focus = +7 attack bonus
+6 BAB +1 Weapon Focus -4 Improvised Weapon penalty = +3 attack bonus

The attack bonuses are not the same. You're excluding the penalty from the formula to make the equations match, but they don't.