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D&D Older Editions
Charop DPR and nova: accuracy vs. damage
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8826001" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>One of the big issues is that the Rogue in 4e is already incredibly accurate especially if you take into account they should <em>always</em> have Combat Advantage. And if you hit you hit and that's the end of things while most targets survive the rogue's attack.</p><p></p><p>To take an example for an average level 2 monster in 4e vs a 4e rogue the rogue should be hitting on 3s.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">AC = 14 +level = 16 for an average monster (14 for artillery and brutes, 18 for soldiers)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A level 2 rogue with a dagger and inherent bonuses should be at +13 to hit.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dex 18 (+4) (more will be dex 20 than dex 16), dagger +3, Rogue Weapon talent +1, Level 2 +1, Light Blade Expertise +1, +1 dagger/Inherent bonus +1, Combat Advantage +2</li> </ul></li> </ul><p>When you're hitting on 3s then you've an 18/20 chance of hitting. A +1 to hit over that increases your damage per round by 1/18. Which means that if a rogue is doing 18 points of damage per attack with sneak attack that +1 to hit is worth an average of one point of damage.</p><p></p><p>But even though you're more likely to be hitting on 5s than 3s in reality as most monsters you'll fight will be a couple of levels above you (so +1 to hit is only worth about 1/16 of your damage rather than 1/18) rogues have "pocket accuracy". Because so much of their damage is made up of their sneak attack rogues tend to save things like their action surge to give them a second chance of landing that sneak attack if they miss in an early round of combat so, if the rogues only use it in the first three rounds of combat and can only use it one combat in two we're <em>almost</em> treating it like an advantage situation here. (Minor action attacks like Low Slash also give a second chance of landing that sneak attack). </p><p></p><p>As for sly flourish vs piercing strike, this is where monster roles and other powers come in. Piercing Strike isn't <em>just</em> worth an average of +2 to hit (not that that would be bad). Piercing strike is an extra tool in your toolbox, and one that is most important against the enemy type you have the hardest time hitting. Against soldiers piercing strike is worth an average of + <em>4</em> to hit because soldiers don't have their reflex defence boosted the way their AC is (and frequently have a low one because the heavy armour weighs them down). Not every foe is a soldier and it's frequently worth nothing against artillery (which you hit on 2s anyway) or skirmishers (many of whom are agile but going to hate your other at will giving you mobility). </p><p></p><p>If I could only have one at will and had to always just spam that I'd probably rate a melee only sly flourish as being at least competitive with piercing strike - but sly flourish doesn't do something a standard [2W] encounter power doesn't. But as a tool in your toolkit sly flourish has the same problem as e.g. deft strike or 95% of your encounter powers against high AC foes. Meanwhile you can look at your foes and guess times when Piercing Strike will be an effective +4 to hit - and at that point it will do far more damage than your encounter powers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8826001, member: 87792"] One of the big issues is that the Rogue in 4e is already incredibly accurate especially if you take into account they should [I]always[/I] have Combat Advantage. And if you hit you hit and that's the end of things while most targets survive the rogue's attack. To take an example for an average level 2 monster in 4e vs a 4e rogue the rogue should be hitting on 3s. [LIST] [*]AC = 14 +level = 16 for an average monster (14 for artillery and brutes, 18 for soldiers) [*]A level 2 rogue with a dagger and inherent bonuses should be at +13 to hit. [LIST] [*]Dex 18 (+4) (more will be dex 20 than dex 16), dagger +3, Rogue Weapon talent +1, Level 2 +1, Light Blade Expertise +1, +1 dagger/Inherent bonus +1, Combat Advantage +2 [/LIST] [/LIST] When you're hitting on 3s then you've an 18/20 chance of hitting. A +1 to hit over that increases your damage per round by 1/18. Which means that if a rogue is doing 18 points of damage per attack with sneak attack that +1 to hit is worth an average of one point of damage. But even though you're more likely to be hitting on 5s than 3s in reality as most monsters you'll fight will be a couple of levels above you (so +1 to hit is only worth about 1/16 of your damage rather than 1/18) rogues have "pocket accuracy". Because so much of their damage is made up of their sneak attack rogues tend to save things like their action surge to give them a second chance of landing that sneak attack if they miss in an early round of combat so, if the rogues only use it in the first three rounds of combat and can only use it one combat in two we're [I]almost[/I] treating it like an advantage situation here. (Minor action attacks like Low Slash also give a second chance of landing that sneak attack). As for sly flourish vs piercing strike, this is where monster roles and other powers come in. Piercing Strike isn't [I]just[/I] worth an average of +2 to hit (not that that would be bad). Piercing strike is an extra tool in your toolbox, and one that is most important against the enemy type you have the hardest time hitting. Against soldiers piercing strike is worth an average of + [I]4[/I] to hit because soldiers don't have their reflex defence boosted the way their AC is (and frequently have a low one because the heavy armour weighs them down). Not every foe is a soldier and it's frequently worth nothing against artillery (which you hit on 2s anyway) or skirmishers (many of whom are agile but going to hate your other at will giving you mobility). If I could only have one at will and had to always just spam that I'd probably rate a melee only sly flourish as being at least competitive with piercing strike - but sly flourish doesn't do something a standard [2W] encounter power doesn't. But as a tool in your toolkit sly flourish has the same problem as e.g. deft strike or 95% of your encounter powers against high AC foes. Meanwhile you can look at your foes and guess times when Piercing Strike will be an effective +4 to hit - and at that point it will do far more damage than your encounter powers. [/QUOTE]
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