Character Level / World Power - Comparison

[howandwhy99]

Hi, I am trying to understand other people's expectations of what character advancement means in terms of world power. It seems that the campaigns I played in with previous editions advanced more slowly and what might be considered "mid-level" now was high level then. I know that the 3rd edition rules can handle higher level play more easily than previous games, but the games I play in now seem to advance so quickly that the mechanical power level of the PC's seems to outstrip their (my) assumed power in the campaign world. I know I prefer the old way, but many people prefer the newer style of advancement.

Below is my own understanding of how character levels match up with PC's power within the world. Ideally PC's would advance a level every 1 or 2 adventures.

1st) PC's are at best known by a few dozen people for having great potential.

5th) PC's are real world heroes who have completed several adventures, are relatively well known in their land, and possibly hold noble status.

10th) PC's are famous across the continent, their accomplishments are being sung across the land, and they work in concert with Kings, Queens, and others in power.

15th) The PC's are famous across the known world, they wield great influence over world events, and they are making a name for themselves in other planes.

20th) The PC's operate across and have great influence in several worlds, they are outside normal laws, and deal mainly with extraplanar creatures and others with world spanning powers. They are the pawns of demigods and divine powers.

So, I am trying to understand the new expectations of players and DM's under the new ruleset. How do these power levels match up in your game?

 

[S'mon]

I would say, for my core campaign, roughly:

3rd PC's are at best known by a few dozen people for having great potential.

9th PC's are real world heroes who have completed several adventures, are relatively well known in their land, and possibly hold noble status.

15th PC's are famous across the continent, their accomplishments are being sung across the land, and they work in concert with Kings, Queens, and others in power.

20th The PC's are famous across the known world, they wield great influence over world events, and they are making a name for themselves in other planes.

25th The PC's operate across and have great influence in several worlds, they are outside normal laws, and deal mainly with extraplanar creatures and others with world spanning powers. They are the pawns of demigods and divine powers.

I don't think this has changed much since 1e - even though high-level characters are more powerful now, but NPC levels are somewhat higher too - no more "zero level NPCs". I've reduced levels for 3e of 'Epic' characters who were level 21+ in 1e/2e, eg 28th then might be 23rd now. The PC deity Thrin had around 120 levels in 1e and has 80 now, most deities will have around 40-60 levels.

 

[drunkmoogle]

1st: Completely unknown outside of their inner circle.
2nd: [Average Trained Warrior]
4th: [Average Combat Veteran]
5th: Known locally, reputation known.
6th: [Elite NPC, among the best at what they do]
9th: Reknown, attract attention wherever they go.
10th: Hero Status
12th: Quite possibly the best on the continent.

 

[Ibram]

1-2) virtualy no rep, maybe some higher up sees some potential in the char. an Apprentice
3-4) some combat experience, a footsoldier or Journyman
5-6) combat vet, something of a reputaion. most middle aged craftsmen or shopkeepers would be around this level
7-8) a soldier with a reputation, perhapse a known bandit or mercenary.
9-10) someone who is probably well known in the circles they travel (hey thats Jaran, they call him the Shadowblade)
10-12) generaly well known by the general population. (becareful, he may just be a captain in the Guard, but people say that hes the Kings personal assasin
13-14) Very well known, "the best Swordsman in the nine cities"
15-16) Great Renownd, exalted hero or reviled villian. unless special measures are taken are recognised instantly whereever they go. "Look everyone its Lord Octavious, back from the Crusades
17-20) World renownd, name spoken by nearly everyone on the planet.

naturaly there are some exceptions, such as someone who has changed their name or otherwise not acted openly.

 

[Silveras]

Part of it is the new "all things balanced" mentality in 3rd Edition.

In 1st/2nd, spellcasters (Magic-Users/Wizards/Mages) began the game with few spells (Clerics did not even get spells until 2nd level, in 1st Edition); the low-levels were the domain of the combat professionals, who had many more hit points and better armor. At the same time, NPCs were "0-level", physically as weak as a 1st level Wizard - and that was as good as they got, really.

1st level PCs were already standouts on that scale, and just got better as time went by. Physically, their abilities leaped quickly until levels 9-11, the "Name" levels; Figher-types especially went from being 2-3 "times" as good as a typical longshoreman (0-level, 3.5 +0 Con bonus hp, THACO 20 compared to 1st level, 5.5+1 Con bonus hp, THAC0 20, compared to 5th level, 27.5+5 Con Bonus, THAC0 16). After that, their resilience (hp) grew at a constant pace. Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers always gained combat "skill", in the form of To Hit numbers, at a rate of 1 per level. Spellcasters, though, can be seen to have "sped up" their effectiveness by gaining access to ever-higher levels of spells over their careers (levels 1-20).

Ok, enough history.

3rd Edition is a complete re-tooling of the game. It is not terribly meaningful to compare advancement rates and other aspects of 3rd Edition to 1st/2nd. It is like comparing modern automobiles to the steam-driven early models. True, both are automobiles, and bear a strong similarity in terms of the simple driver's approach: I start it, get in, and drive to where I want to go. Or, I get in, start it, and drive to where I want to go.

Others have complained about the advancement rate. Others have also adjusted it, by reducing the XP to 1/2 what the table says (or some other fraction). The point is, once you start playing, it is your game to adjust to suit your preferences.

FWIW, I also think the current edition makes "hero-rank achievements" come later.

1st-3rd: apprentices just starting out
4th-6th: Professionals, beginning to make a reputation
7th-9th: Accomplished professionals, recognized by their peers.
10th-12th: Consulted by the powerful.
13th-15th: Significiant authorities in their fields, well-known professionals whose services are in demand
16th-20th: Well-known heroes
21st+: Epic

Note that I don't tie "what" they do into "when" they do it. PCs can be minor landholding nobles at 1st level. They may find it harder to rule effectively, but they can. They can also start exploring the planes as early as they want to (and can find the means).

 

[Grodd JoJoJo]

I really can't see the usefulness in making level-by-level pronouncements of a character's influence or renown. Those things shouldn't be class-based. I'd say that a 20th level rogue might be either a well-known champion of the people, or a complete unknown, depending on the player's choices.

At any point, the characters can achieve wider renown simply by behaving heroically before a number of people. In even a high-magic setting, word-of-mouth is the only real determiner of those things: talk of the town, bard tributes, local broadsheets. Also, the nature of the PCs relationship with political powers or the people determines their influence, for better or worse.

I can't see those things as functions of levels, only of story.

 

[Faraer]

I don't know whether or not it's slowed down, but level inflation was really awful during the late 80s and 90s. The scale has pretty much doubled: a 9th-level character in 1980 is comparable to an 18th-level character in 2000.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I've thought a lot about this, and generally agree with the original poster. Your typical foot soldier is a level 1 Warrior, ability scores on straight 3d6, and rolling for hit points at first level. Compare this to a level 1 PC fighter. The difference is about as great as that between the "Normal Man" and level 1 fighter was in BD&D, so it's not surprising that even then a 1st-level fighter was a Veteran.
By level 3, the fighter is a match for an ogre (as far as CR goes). Not "rookie" by any means at that point.

Levels 1-4: Competent, regarded as skilled by those in their town. Tougher than ordinary guardsmen, thugs, and bandits.
Levels 5-8: Heroes at the regional level. Impressive, but still recognizably human. Eddie and Susannah Dean in "The Waste Lands."
Levels 9-12: Among a kingdom's greatest heroes, reaching into legendary territory (11+). Occasionally demonstrate skill or toughness that is apparently superhuman (think Gimli, Legolas, Boromir).
Levels 13-16: Among the world's greatest living heroes, quite clearly legends (of a status comparable to Aragorn, Perseus, or Roland of Gilead).
Levels 17-20: The greatest heroes who have ever lived (of a status comparable to Achilles, Hercules, Gilgamesh, or Sinbad), and among the most powerful living beings of any kind at that time.
Levels 21+: gods

Obviously, my experience is shaped by lots of low-level play and being just astounded at what a level 7 character can do. It is also shaped by the assumption left over from earlier editions that "Normal Humans" gain levels slowly or not at all. I don't believe in level 20 commoners, regardless of what the DMG demographics say.

 

[Baron Opal]

For the Kericindal Campaign

Level breakdown for my world:

1) Adolescents

2-5) Young adults, new families, adventurers out of their apprenticeships. "Low level adventures".

7+) Older adults, experienced NPCs. Wise old hermits, established priests (not clerics), cattle ranch owners. 10th level is the cap for NPC classes. Most of the older nobles. "Mid level adventures."

12+) Characters become "named". Deeds are sung, or whispered in dread tones. "Tough mid-level adeventures". Other planes are explored but the risk is great.

17+) Mythic heroes, cross-planar adventures, interacting with the representitives of the gods. They attract the attention of the attention of the powers of the cosmos.

25-30) The greatest of the great. Coming into direct conflict with powers, demi-gods, and demon lords. Only a handful on their home plane and they are usually dealing with cosmos-wide issues. 30th level is the cap for mortal achievement. Transcendance to a higher order is immanent and they will soon learn the great truths of the cosmos.

Character levels have a bimodal peak. Most of them are in the 2-5th and 12+ bracket. There is a significant slow-down in level gain once you reach that level as tasks that draw their attention become fewer; the amount of "down-time" increases. They are more capable and the foolish died out last tier.

Characters in the 17th+ level are either saving the world from the really nasty threats or hire the 12th+ group to take care of it. They are often aloof, seeing a "big picture" that those of lower levels don't notice. Sometimes they just don't want to be bothered.

Baron Opal

 

[Zappo]

My scale is very close to S'mon's. 1st to 3rd level are what I consider the range into which most commoners fall. The only difference is that the PCs have a PC class. But it takes some more before you're considered a hero. As for high levels, I reason that until they are epic, they are still comprehensible for common people - extremely powerful, but not godlike, and certain to be remembered for generations, but not for millennia.