D&D 5E Changing Sneak Attack to Light Weapons

[DND_Reborn]

I was looking over sneak attack today and it occurred to me that restricting it to finesse weapons (or ranged) is something WotC got wrong IMO. This means that weapons such as a club and handaxe can't be used, but a weapon such as a Rapier (boo-hiss!!!) can. I think the finesse restriction should be light instead for the melee weapon property.

This solves the rogues always taking rapiers because-they-are-the-only-d8-finessee-weapon-and-I-can-sneak-attack-with-it issue. Rogues can still use the rapier as a primary weapon if they want the d8 of course, but not sneak attack with it.

It also stops the double-bladed scimitar for being used on sneak attacks as well.

Currently, the only weapons you can sneak attack (in melee) with are:

• Dagger
• Rapier
• Scimitar
• Shortsword
• Whip

Anyway, this would make the list of weapons you can sneak attack with:

• Club
• Dagger
• Handaxe
• Light Hammer
• Sickle
• Scimitar
• Shortsword

Since a number of these weapons aren't finesse, it lends to building STR-based Rogues for the players who want to. You could have a thug-type rogue who sneak attacks with clubs.

For people who like the idea of sneak attacking with a whip, it really should have the light property IMO anyway. Dual-wielding whips was a historic dueling practice and as such it should have the light property so it can be used as the second weapon. Yeah, you can do it with the feat, but again the game is designed around feats being optional. Otherwise, only the scimitar and shortsword are d6 weapons, everything else is a d4.

I know some people have house-ruled rapier to a d6 weapon anyway, but that doesn't help that weapons such as the club and handaxe can't be used for a sneak attack.

Other than responses from the WLR ("We Love Rapiers") club members, any thoughts on this? I think it works better, of course, but I am always open to discussion and curious if others have already made this change.

 

[GlassJaw]

I think sneak attack should apply to all weapons, but I could see an argument for non-heavy weapons.

The finesse restriction only serves to limit the character options (Strength rogues for example). I haven't see any balance reasons for the restriction. If anything, it means that all rogues will all take one of the most powerful weapons already: the rapier.

I was bummed when I ran LMoP because the arcane trickster in the group wanted the spider staff but alas, he can't get his sneak attack if he fights with it. Bleh.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’d rather make it light or finesse.

Well, no, I’d rather combine the two traits, but if I can’t get that...

Going your way, I’d still add rapier for swashbucklers.

But IME running games at the library and elsewhere, most rogues use daggers, unless their concept calls for something else.

 

[Oofta]

We made it all one-handed attacks (no heavy weapons, versatile weapons if used one-handed), thrown weapons and ranged attacks.

If you do the same amount of base damage we never really saw the issue. That, and it never made sense that you could sneak attack with a dagger but not a light hammer.

Made strength based rogues a better option ... even if they were still less optimal because Dex is such an uber-stat. That, and a rapier wielding dwarf or half-orc is just a weird visual to me even if they could still use strength for attack and damage.

 

[jaelis]

I personally think the finesse restriction helps define the flavor and character of the rogue. But there's obviously no balance reason not to allow all light weapons. I don't think there's any big balance issue with allowing rapiers either though.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This is a flavour issue not a balance issue. There's no 1H weapon, at all, in 4E, which Sneak Attack is unbalanced on.

Even with 2H weapons, it's not actually a problem, because GWF only applies to the weapon's own damage dice (according to Sage Advice - Rules Answers: April 2016 | Dungeons & Dragons).

I guess if you some sort of weird min-maxer, you could get GWM as well, somehow, but I'd be interested to see if that actually worked out when you only had 1 attack/round and relied on it connecting to do your SA damage (you wouldn't have the usual off-hand weapon for a "second bite at the cherry").

None of which to say that you need to change this, but it's not a balance problem.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Shouldn't be an issue. I just flat-out removed the finesse requirement for sneak attack, and haven't seen any thematic or balance issues yet.

 

[Oofta]

This is a flavour issue not a balance issue. There's no 1H weapon, at all, in 4E, which Sneak Attack is unbalanced on.

Even with 2H weapons, it's not actually a problem, because GWF only applies to the weapon's own damage dice (according to Sage Advice - Rules Answers: April 2016 | Dungeons & Dragons).

I guess if you some sort of weird min-maxer, you could get GWM as well, somehow, but I'd be interested to see if that actually worked out when you only had 1 attack/round and relied on it connecting to do your SA damage (you wouldn't have the usual off-hand weapon for a "second bite at the cherry").

None of which to say that you need to change this, but it's not a balance problem.

Not to mention that taking the feat and taking -5 to hit would be counter productive for most rogues.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not to mention that taking the feat and taking -5 to hit would be counter productive for most rogues.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Even if you can get Advantage reliably, is -5 (thus negating Advantage, or more than negating it!) actually going to be worth +10 damage? Let's see.

Let's say you have Rapier for 1d8 (4.5) damage, and +7 to hit, vs AC13 (75% chance to hit), and do +4d6 (14) SA damage.

No Advantage but somehow getting SA (Swashbuckler or the like), your average DPR is 13.87

Advantage (94% chance to hit? I'll go with it) means your average DPR is 17.39

Greatsword with GWM being used means 2d6 (7) damage, +2 to hit, vs AC13 (45% chance to hit), and do +4d6 (14) SA + 10 GWM damage.

No advantage - 13.95 DPR - about the same.

Advantage (69% chance to hit in this case) means your average DPR is 21.39 - so with advantage it is, round on round, a significant gain.

Without GWM:

No advantage - 15.75

Advantage (94% chance to hit) - 19.74

So actually even with Advantage, GWM is only 1.65 DPR gain over just using a greatsword. Which is something, but worth the trouble of getting it? Not sure about that.

 

[Horwath]

We house ruled that Sneak attack is working with all weapons.

for greatsword your need to spend a feat or multiclass.

Not worth it for few points of damage per attack.