Changeling and Disguise/Alter Self

[blargney the second]

Changelings get a +10 circumstance bonus to Disguise checks. Disguise Self and Alter Self provide a +10 untyped bonus to Disguise. Do they stack?

Thanks!
-blarg

 

[Corsair]

No, and for a reason that people tend to overlook.

Disguise self: "If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check."

Alter Self: "If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check."

I don't have my ECS handy, but I assume it says the same thing.

You cannot use all three abilities simultaneously. When you use the changeling ability, you can make a disguise check in the process. Using Alter Self you can make a 2nd disguise check. Using disguise self, you could make a third disguise check. However you cannot use all three abilities simultaneously, as they are all actions to perform, therefore it would be impossible to stack all the bonuses at once.

 

[Scharlata]

Changelings get a +10 circumstance bonus to Disguise checks. Disguise Self and Alter Self provide a +10 untyped bonus to Disguise. Do they stack?

Interesting question.

They should stack because Minor Change (Su) states that the alteration of appearance is "NOT an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration". Maybe changelings are "masters of disguise"? Why deny them the magical support of a spell in addition to their special quality? However, "legally" the boni will stack. .

Kind regards

 

[Jdvn1]

No, and for a reason that people tend to overlook.

Disguise self: "If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check."

Alter Self: "If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check."

I don't have my ECS handy, but I assume it says the same thing.

You cannot use all three abilities simultaneously. When you use the changeling ability, you can make a disguise check in the process. Using Alter Self you can make a 2nd disguise check. Using disguise self, you could make a third disguise check. However you cannot use all three abilities simultaneously, as they are all actions to perform, therefore it would be impossible to stack all the bonuses at once.

That's how I'd rule it too.

 

[moritheil]

That's how I'd rule it too.

Hm, I usually agree with this poster, but looking at the rules as stated above, it doesn't say that the Changeling uses a power or anything when disguising itself. I would presume, from folklore, that it does, but if it does not, and it simply gets a +10 named bonus, it should be able to stack with one of the other bonuses (but only one, for reasons named above) and apply to the same Disguise check.

 

[shilsen]

Hm, I usually agree with this poster, but looking at the rules as stated above, it doesn't say that the Changeling uses a power or anything when disguising itself. I would presume, from folklore, that it does, but if it does not, and it simply gets a +10 named bonus, it should be able to stack with one of the other bonuses (but only one, for reasons named above) and apply to the same Disguise check.

Yes, the changeling is using a special ability and only gets the +10 circumstance bonus when doing so. The complete description of the Minor Change Shape (Su) ability says that changelings "have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell". I think it's safe to say that doesn't stack with a disguise self or alter self.

 

[moritheil]

Yes, the changeling is using a special ability and only gets the +10 circumstance bonus when doing so. The complete description of the Minor Change Shape (Su) ability says that changelings "have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell". I think it's safe to say that doesn't stack with a disguise self or alter self.

And now my lack of familiarity with changelings comes into play

Having seen a more proper quotation of the rules, I agree with you, with Jdvn1, and with just about every other poster thus far: No, disguise self and alter self do not stack with the changeling ability, as it is basically a Su variant of disguise self.

 

[Corsair]

Hm, I usually agree with this poster, but looking at the rules as stated above, it doesn't say that the Changeling uses a power or anything when disguising itself. I would presume, from folklore, that it does, but if it does not, and it simply gets a +10 named bonus, it should be able to stack with one of the other bonuses (but only one, for reasons named above) and apply to the same Disguise check.

But the point you're missing is that you are not in fact using them at the same time. All of them require a standard action to use. Each time you use one of these abilities, they give you an opportunity to make one disguise check with a +10 bonus. They do not let you save up the bonuses for use the next round.

 

[Caliban]

Technically, the bonus from "Disguise Self" and "Alter Self" would stack, as they are both unnamed bonuses, and they different effects. One is an illusion spell, the other is a transmutation spell that creates a true physical change.

Of course, it would only work if they were both being used to create the same appearance.

The Changling race from Eberron uses an effect similar to "Disguise Self", except that it's a true physical change, not just an illusion.

 

[moritheil]

But the point you're missing is that you are not in fact using them at the same time. All of them require a standard action to use. Each time you use one of these abilities, they give you an opportunity to make one disguise check with a +10 bonus. They do not let you save up the bonuses for use the next round.

I am not missing it; rather, my understanding is that when you make a new disguise check you lose the benefits of the old one, because they are superseded by the new disguise check.