Challenge Rating?

[gogo_jerrick]

Is it just me or are some CR's out of whack? Any thoughts on monsters and CR adjustments.


Babau CR6?- with the ability to cast darkness and greater teleport at will, two babau's can ruin a party. Two babau's managed to kill two of my four pc's in a lvl 10 party and use up most of their resources(50-70%). With damage reduction, sneak attack, damage to anyone or anything that touches it, ability to dispel all magic effects at will, and if all else fails, they can summon another one of their own. Absolutely deadly. CR 9?

 

[Thia Halmades]

There are a few out there that I just don't get; the Cockatrice turns folks to stone with a single bite, but it's a CR 3, which means that a group of six 3rd levels will have no problem with one (the first encounter) or a pair (who are about 100' down the hall). My personal favorite Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, though, has to be the Remorhaz.

I love that thing. The other problem is my big (huge) gripe with D&D, and that's wealth management. Wealth drives CRs as much as level does; by X level, your Fighter should be carrying X x Lvl. in enchanted gear, with at least a +Y Weapon of Choice, enhanced armor, etc. I use magic items for flavor, which makes my encounters a fair bit deadlier than the run of the mill melee.

I concede the point; using all of the abilities at your disposal (casting well timed spells, gating in and out, getting sneak attacks on people, summoning allies, CR 10/Cold Iron, etc.) are all extremely vicious. I have just one of those things running around and the party can't figure out why they can't catch it.

A lot of times you look at the entry and think they're on dope. I'm fairly certain that a 3rd level Cleric (with 2nd level magic) can't render Stone to Flesh quite yet, but a cockatrice is a CR 3 MOB. Which means two of them are a CR 4, which lines up with a bunch of 3rd level characters as a "moderate challenge." In Ravenloft. In their own basement. Have fun dragging the statue out!

By the way, does anyone know how much a statue of a normally proportioned 6' human would be? What's a 6 x 4 x 2 block o' stone weigh?

 

[gogo_jerrick]

well, that is what my thing was with the babau's, my party was avg lvl 10 with atrifacts. I hand created items that would jump them up quite a bit and they still got owned.

The CR 20 Tarrasque? Are theysaying that an old gold dragon is tougher than the ol' mighty tarrasque?

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Is it just me or are some CR's out of whack? Any thoughts on monsters and CR adjustments.

Assigning CR is for all intents and purposes Voodoo. There's no hard formula that can be applied. It has to be determined on a case by case basis for each monster. DM's all run the same monsters a little differently. Players all run their characters and PC parties a little differently from one gaming group to another. It is thus not uncommon for any individual to look at the CR for a monster and think, "My players would mop the ground with this monster," or, "I don't see how I could play this monster to be the threat it supposedly is," or the like. A CR simply cannot be quite as accurate across all boundries as we'd all like to think it is or ought to be.

What it comes down to then is that for the most part the CR's are probably not as whacked as you might think - but if you really think they are; if practical experience in running them against a variety of PC's in a variety of encounters shows they are over/underpowered, then adjust the CR for your own purposes. That's about all there is to it. Just be sure that those encounters are NOT a party of lvl 10's trying to take on a CR twice their level no matter WHAT adjustments and artifacts you've given them.

CR is a measure of challenge to a STANDARD PC party with STANDARD equipment values and STANDARD tactics. Remember also that it is not a challenge that is EQUAL to the PC's - that is, it's not a face-off that should end in a TIE. An equal CR is a challenge that should result in a PC win, but with a certain amount of their spells, hit points, and resources consumed.

 

[Thia Halmades]

*nod* I think what he's saying is, with that caveat, there are still MOBs which are grossly unbalanced against thier listed CR, and that's confusing, especially if you're new to the game and trying to really milk a MOBs abilities for all their worth, you can seriously screw up a standard issue party. You're also talking about wealth management, which I understand is an integral part of game design, but it isn't really me. That's part of my game philosophy, though - I prefer low magic games to the more super-hero level campaigns that PCs attain.

However, that makes balancing attacks & combats that much more difficult, although admittedly, the PCs have just gotten much more creative with what they have. And, having a full Wizard & Sorc. on the same time is allowing them to blast with incredible efficiency.

Point stands though. And agreed; CRs are a fair bit of Voodoo.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

What about how an NPC drow fighter 2 is CR 3 but a pc one is ECL 4 and a human fighter 3 is CR 3 and a human fighter 4 is ECL 4?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

What about how an NPC drow fighter 2 is CR 3 but a pc one is ECL 4 and a human fighter 3 is CR 3 and a human fighter 4 is ECL 4?

Or that depending on what race you are, equipment has a different CR value. Example: To be a Fire Giant, you are ECL 17 or something (doesn't really matter), but are only CR..what, 10?
By this logic, a 17th level fighter without equipment is CR 10 as well? And you might be a different race that's ECL 17, but might be CR 9 or 14... So the ECL that WotC adds based on equipment varies.

Madness.

 

[gogo_jerrick]

What it comes down to then is that for the most part the CR's are probably not as whacked as you might think - but if you really think they are; if practical experience in running them against a variety of PC's in a variety of encounters shows they are over/underpowered, then adjust the CR for your own purposes. That's about all there is to it. Just be sure that those encounters are NOT a party of lvl 10's trying to take on a CR twice their level no matter WHAT adjustments and artifacts you've given them.

CR is a measure of challenge to a STANDARD PC party with STANDARD equipment values and STANDARD tactics. Remember also that it is not a challenge that is EQUAL to the PC's - that is, it's not a face-off that should end in a TIE. An equal CR is a challenge that should result in a PC win, but with a certain amount of their spells, hit points, and resources consumed.

No, 2 babau's(Cr 6 each) should be about a CR 0f 8 or so. I had 4 10th level monster-grinders with atrifacts and the babau's mopped the floor with them. IT wasn't an impossible battle. It was supposed to be an easy one, a really easy win. I know what CR is. Iv'e played the game for 4 years, Iv'e ran one for 3. I usually play low-magic settings, and created a high-magic/lvl world. They should have mopped the floor with them is what I'm saying.

HOW BOUT WE STAY ON TOPIC PLZ.

All dragon cr's- If dragons are really played to their intelligence, why are their cr's so low? They could easily fly out of range and sight just in time to come back to breathe and then crush. There is no easy way to kill a dragon.

 

[Thia Halmades]

The adjustments are like the magic construction system, and someone else already said it: It's voodoo, at its finest. You have to go with your gut sometimes and play the MOB somewhere between what the MOB could do (pwn) and should do (entertain). "Tea and crumpets? Oh, you wanted a battle? Pity. They're lovely crumpets."

You're right; there's no easy way to kill a Dragon. You have to take the fight to it; you also have to put yourself in the head of a 800 year old lizard with hyper-intelligence, limitless strength & a real bad attitude problem (thank you, K). But your original question, near as I can understand it was: Are CRs out of whack, and do we (the Borg) have any collected thoughts on them, and possible adjustments.

My answer is, play close to the vest and decide how badly you want to pound on your party. If you're an out-to-see-torn-up-sheets sort of DM, then go full throttle with a standard CR MOB and see what happens. You could also ask, instead of adjusting the MOB, if the party is using appropriate tactics. i.e., I have players who are, in D&D terms, grossly underpowered for their level (except the casters, and even they have no gear). They fight demons. Yeah. Demons. The demons tend to bring them pretty close to breaking, but just the demons abilities aren't being taken into account.

Is your party using effective tactics? Are they utilizing the battlefield to their advantage? Are the wizards staying in back and buffing/banging, or are they trying to swing their artifacts like warriors? I agree with you - there are some CRs which, by basic math, don't make a lot of sense. However, the objective is to make the game as balanced, and as fun, as possible. We all know Rule 0 allows us to flub rolls, adjust damage here & there, and if necessary, go easy on the PCs.

There's more than one way, said the poet, to skin a cat.

 

[Fieari]

Yeah, the official CR rules are voodoo. Basically, what they did is they made the creatures, then playtested them against a bunch of different parties. They took the data from playtesting, and assigned CRs. The problem with this is that it isn't always perfect, and sometimes the playtesters might have been using superior tactics.

Fortunately, our own dear Upper_Krust has spent a CONSIDERABLE amount of time trying to come up with a consistant method of generating REAL CRs, based on the following assumptions:

There are two general principles regarding CR: firstly that it signifies a moderately challenging encounter for a party of 4-5 characters of the same power....
eg. CR 15 suggests the opponent would be a moderate challenge for a party of four (or five) 15th-level characters.
...secondly, that CR parallels character level.
eg. A 10th-level character is CR 10 (at least before Ability Scores).

Under this system, a babau is CR 10, not 6. Heck, Balors become CR 33. It's been extensively playested.

Upper Krust goes a step further though, and not only recreates CRs, but figures out what a given party should be able to handle in a much more accurate and quantified manner. As such, he redevoled "Encounter Levels"... which are a measure of relative power. I mean, when you're level 1, fighting a level 3 foe is incredibly difficult. When you're level 20, fighting a level 23 foe isn't quite as daunting. He makes the assumption that if you double the challenge, the EL increases by 2 (an EL 14 is twice as difficult as an EL 12). Then, by comparing ELs, you can determing how much of the party resources should be consumed in that encounter, and also the best way to award XP.

For example, fighting an encounter of +4 EL is incredibly difficult, whether you're level 2 or level 200. (If you're level 200, your EL is only 31, as EL is logrithmic) Fighting an EL +5 is for all intents and purposes, impossible to win.

The EL rules are pretty simple to follow, and have nice easy to read charts. It factors in multiple creatures being fought (so if you pit the party against 5 quasits and 2 babaus, you'd total the CRs (the revised, real CRs) and get 5*3.5+2*10=37.5, which translates (logrithmically) to EL 21, but then you subtract 5 because there are so many creatures, for an EL of 16, which covers a CR range of 14-15. As such, this is an encounter valid for parties of levels 10-20.

(the reason for a penalty to EL for having more creatures in the encounter is for things like tossing 500 rats at the party. A rat is CR 1/8. 500/8=62, which is EL 21. But 500 rats could be easily slaughtered by a couple well placed fireballs, and those rats will be hitting higher level parties only 5% of the time, and doing very little damage with each bite. True, 500 rats is more challenging than just 2, since they simply keep comming, provide flanking bonuses, and the sheer numbers might eventually mean some bites get through before great cleave and area attacks take them out, but that's why having 500 creatures lowers the EL by only 17, giving 500 rats a true EL of 7, equivelent to a CR of 3.)

Okay, so it sounds complicated, but I've been using it in my games for a while now, and it really IS easy and fast and convenient and above all... ACCURATE. And you can't beat that.

I've attached the full document below. At least give it a look over. Use the bookmarks and jump to "Revised Challenge Ratings" if you just want to see the more accurate values for creatures, and not how those numbers were generated.