D&D 5E Cat has "Weapons Expertise" with its Claws?

[Hriston]

Help me settle a dispute I'm having with someone regarding the cat stat-block in Basic Rules pdf. It says that the cat's to hit with its claws (listed as a melee attack) is +0, even though the cat's Strength gives it a penalty of -4. This suggests to me that the cat has a doubled Proficiency bonus with regard to its claw attack, a kind of "weapon expertise." The other party to this argument says that the claws are a finesse weapon and that therefore the cat is using Dexterity for the attack, but if that were true the cat would have a +4 to hit. Is there another explanation for this? I haven't seen any other monsters with "expertise" in a weapon attack.

Actually, the closest thing to this I've been able to find is the Fighter's Archery fighting style, which effectively doubles Proficiency (by granting a +2 bonus), but doesn't scale up with level the way a Rogue's Expertise does. So are there any examples of this sort of thing that I may have missed? It seems like it could be applicable to a kind of weapon specialization a la 1.5-2e AD&D.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Yes, the simple answer is this: Monsters/NPC's don't play by the same rules.

Stop "thinking in 3.x/PF/4e"...you don't have to have some rule explanation for every little bonus, penalty, ability, or anything else. 5e is not about "building" statblocks...it's about creating interesting things to make the game fun. So, with regards to your question...the cat has +0 because the person writing up the stats for the cat figured it was about right. They aren't strong, and they are small...so that should be a penalty...but the claws are very sharp, and cats are very quick...so that should be a bonus. Taking all that into consideration, I guess the person who wrote up the Cat stats figured they balanced out in the end, so +0 it is.

It really is that simple.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[seebs]

Yeah, attack bonuses on NPCs are not necessarily computed from stat mods and proficiency the way PC attack bonuses are.

 

[Hriston]

Hiya!

Yes, the simple answer is this: Monsters/NPC's don't play by the same rules.

Stop "thinking in 3.x/PF/4e"...you don't have to have some rule explanation for every little bonus, penalty, ability, or anything else. 5e is not about "building" statblocks...it's about creating interesting things to make the game fun. So, with regards to your question...the cat has +0 because the person writing up the stats for the cat figured it was about right. They aren't strong, and they are small...so that should be a penalty...but the claws are very sharp, and cats are very quick...so that should be a bonus. Taking all that into consideration, I guess the person who wrote up the Cat stats figured they balanced out in the end, so +0 it is.

It really is that simple.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Thanks for responding! I've never played 3e/3.5e/or 4e, so I wouldn't know how to think in any of those things, and I'd appreciate you not telling me how to think in the first place. Seriously, look at every other monster stat-block. They all get their Proficiency bonus, based on their CR, on their attack actions. Also, this topic actually interests me, so it's not very constructive for you to tell me it's inconsequential. If that's how you feel, you can find someone else's thread to post on. If OTOH you actually think you're being helpful and that I am that misguided, then I appreciate your attempt at "helping" me. I suggest that in the future, however, you try to use a less condescending tone.

 

[Baumi]

I don't think that the Attack bonus goes under +0. Other weaker Animals like Crabs and the like certainly don't have lower Attack Boni.

Also Hriston that was very rude of you. He was just trying to help and actually you are BOTH right! The Monster Manual seems to use mainly the Stat+Proficieny for Attack, while the DMG tells you to use a table, wing it or calculate it.

 

[aramis erak]

Yeah, attack bonuses on NPCs are not necessarily computed from stat mods and proficiency the way PC attack bonuses are.

In fact, it can often be the other direction... set the attributes so that the HP and attack bonuses work. (I've not personally found any that don't match, tho'. The ones I've found that appear not to are actually double proficiency bonus, rather than single, and are on skills.)

 

[Hriston]

I don't think that the Attack bonus goes under +0. Other weaker Animals like Crabs and the like certainly don't have lower Attack Boni.

Also Hriston that was very rude of you. He was just trying to help and actually you are BOTH right! The Monster Manual seems to use mainly the Stat+Proficieny for Attack, while the DMG tells you to use a table, wing it or calculate it.

I understand that this subject is pretty trivial and I'm sorry to get bent out of shape, but I really don't think telling someone not to be rude to me makes me rude. I didn't ask anyone to explain to me what 5e is about. But I appreciate your efforts to smooth things over.

And thank you for pointing out that there are other, low Strength creatures that share this quality. I can see that Rat is another one. I can believe that keeping the Attack bonus from turning into a penalty was a design consideration for them. I'm pretty sure that the Attack modifier for PCs can be negative, and it seems a little unfair that PCs are subject to these penalties (although I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't be) while at the same time these creatures are not, but I don't suppose too many PCs will be basing their attacks on abilities that give them penalties, so it really isn't that important. So thanks for taking my question seriously and giving me an alternative explanation.

 

[Hriston]

Yeah, attack bonuses on NPCs are not necessarily computed from stat mods and proficiency the way PC attack bonuses are.

In fact, it can often be the other direction... set the attributes so that the HP and attack bonuses work. (I've not personally found any that don't match, tho'. The ones I've found that appear not to are actually double proficiency bonus, rather than single, and are on skills.)

Yes, that's why my thought was that it was a double Proficiency bonus. I just hadn't seen it applied this way to Attack bonuses, only to skills, similar to a Rogue's Expertise. Even if the designers were "breaking the rules" in this respect, to just eliminate the -2 penalty, I still like the idea that the Cat, the Crab, and the Rat are so proficient with their natural weapons that they might be considered experts. I also understand the designers being reluctant to raise their Strength score to produce the desired Attack bonus given that the critters are so tiny.

 

[Actoba]

edit: nvm, i see you considered finesse as an option in the OP...ignore me

 

[ExploderWizard]

Seriously, look at every other monster stat-block. They all get their Proficiency bonus, based on their CR, on their attack actions.

And how is that CR determined? Partially by the desired attack bonus, so we have a loop of stats determined by CR and CR based on the stats you want to assign to something.

So really, there aren't any rigidly coded rules that spell out how a monster got X.