Can a cleric use Create Undead usefully?

[shadmere]

I've been using Animate Dead so far, but later on Create Undead will be available. Seems like a good upgrade.

But can it really even be used? The text states that:

"Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms. "

So even if I summon a ghoul or something, it's not even under my control. And Command Undead is an arcane spell, so I can't use that. So how am I suppose to even consider using this spell?

 

[Starbuck_II]

I've been using Animate Dead so far, but later on Create Undead will be available. Seems like a good upgrade.

But can it really even be used? The text states that:

"Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms. "

So even if I summon a ghoul or something, it's not even under my control. And Command Undead is an arcane spell, so I can't use that. So how am I suppose to even consider using this spell?

Clerics can turn undead...reread it. You'll find it can control undead if you can rebuke/command them (neutral or evil Clerics can).

 

[shadmere]

Ohhh...

So a Neutral/Evil cleric could Command undead using a Rebuke attempt, but a good cleric can't.

I guess good clerics don't usually wander around creating undead, either.

Thanks.

 

[coyote6]

I guess good clerics don't usually wander around creating undead, either.

Not if they want to remain good clerics, anyways.

 

[HoboGod]

On this topic, what makes Create Undead so great? An evil cleric can only command a number of undead whose total HD are equal to or less than her hit dice and these undead can only be given commands as a standard action. Animate dead controls 4 HD per caster level, typically equal to the caster's HD, and does not specify a standard action per command (which implies a free action to me). I can see why it's useful, sure, but what makes it better than Animate Dead?

EDIT: Also, a standard action to cast Animate Dead, an hour to cast Create Undead. Seriously? At least I have the potential to use animate dead in combat if one of the enemy dies, not a chance for Create Undead.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

On this topic, what makes Create Undead so great?

Created undead are quite a bit more capable than mere animated ones.

I think their most important feature, though, is that they are intelligent, and thus there are more options for influencing them beyond puppet-like control. The higher forms of undead can be reasoned with, instructed, bribed, threatened, tricked, etc. ("Don't forget little ghoulie boy: I brought you into this world, and I can take you out!") While commanding them certainly guarantees control, it's not absolutely necessary for simply maintaining non-hostile relations with them.

Imho, this spell is for creating allies or lackeys, rather than mooks.

 

[jefgorbach]

Evil/Neutral clerics can attempt to rebuke/control whereas Good clerics typically just want to turn/destroy them. Gm/Pc agreement could change this for a particular case/deity of course.

Animate Undead creates cannon fodder/programmable servants whereas Create Undead creates intelligent self-reasoning potential cohorts to be bargained with via role-playing instead of simply ordering it around like a mindless minion.

 

[HoboGod]

I'm not sure if I need more than mooks and cannon fodder, to be honest, especially evil ones. I dunno, maybe this spell is the spell some people wait anxiously to have, the one that defines the necromancer of their fantasies. I doubt I'll be sold on it, though. The necromancer is what he is at 5th level Cleric in my mind, just upon getting Speak with Dead and Animate Dead.

I can see what you guys are driving at here, however. You're saying this spell has the potential to surpass Animate Dead by making the undead follow the necromancer of their own free will, thusly eliminating the HD cap. Logically, one merely needs to make a DC 50 diplomacy check to turn a hostile ghoul into a helpful one. Such a check is frequently obtainable at 11th level with a some combination of Skill Focus [Diplomacy], Negotiator, Choker of Eloquence +10, Synergy bonus, high charisma, max ranks in diplomacy, and a high roll. At which point, the limit of one's undead servents is measured in casting time, spells per day, material components, chance, and the DM's patience. Alas, necromancers in my mind shouldn't be the socialites of the undead world, they should be the antisocial of the human world. I'm gunna go back to my cave where this spell is a terrible waste of a 6th level slot.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Well, the attitude change could be accomplished via several checks over a long period of time, and a creature doesn't have to be "helpful" to be useful. Heck, I'm not even convinced a created intelligent undead would necessarily be "hostile" right off the bat.

And if Diplomacy isn't your necro's cup of tea, there's Intimidate, which may be more appropriate. Or if the necro's especially creative, he could try Bluff.

Of course there's just plain old simple economics, too. Bribes, mercenaries, and so on, with transactions made in whatever currency the nasties want: blood, gold, power, freedom, restful afterlife, whatever.

Imho, lots of RP potential there... though admittedly not likely the sort of things a dungeon-delving PC is likely to need to do. More likely this is the domain of NPC necros, or maybe of high-level PCs with aspirations of rulership or command.

Meh, obviously YMMV.

 

[Jack Simth]

And if Diplomacy isn't your necro's cup of tea, there's Intimidate, which may be more appropriate.

Unfortunately, Intimidate the skill won't work on Undead, as they are immune to fear....