D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

[Falling Icicle]

One thing I keep hearing is that wizards are/were "overpowered" because they can do so many things that other characters cannot. "How can a fighter and a wizard possibly be balanced when the wizard can do things like fly, teleport, and turn people into frogs?!"

The interesting thing, though, is that people generally considered fighters and wizards to be balanced in 4th edition, even though the exact same thing was true of that edition too! Fighters may have gotten powers just like wizards, but those powers were limited to strictly martial-themed things. Fighters couldn't fly, teleport, throw fireballs or do anything blatantly reality-bending. They certainly could do some things that were amazing and even stretched belief, but they were always feats of physical prowess, never anything outright magical.

So why is it then that people insist that wizards aren't or can't be balanced with fighters because they have a wider range of abilities (no matter how many drawbacks come along with it, like no armor, low hit points, the ability to have their powers disrupted, dispelled, etc.)?

I think there's alot of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" envy going on here. Were spellcasters overpowered at high levels in past editions? Sure, I won't deny that. Of course, they were also underpowered at low levels. I would rather them be balanced at every level, personally. But that can be accomplished without taking away the wizard's cool toys. The reason wizards were overpowered at high levels in the past was mostly due to the fact that they just had so bloody many spells that the whole "limited resource" thing was no longer much of a limitation at all. Of course, there were some overpowered spells too, but those can be fixed on a case by case basis. We've already seen some good ways of balancing some of the more game-breaking spells of the past, like making it so that long range teleportation can only take you to a teleportation circle.

We shouldn't try to balance wizards and fighters by making wizards suck. We should give fighters some cool toys of their own! And no, I don't mean "MOAR DAMAGE RAWR!" It's the other two pillars where they need help. Alot of help. I have a few ideas on how to do that.

1. Give fighters skill tricks, like the rogue. Not the same list of skill tricks, obviously, but ones that fit a fighter's style. There's no reason why fighters shouldn't be able to be great athletes or inspiring leaders. I can see fighters getting skill tricks related to endurance, feats of strength, climbing, running, riding, swimming, leadership, intimidation, and much more. Fighters should be able to be more than just dumb brutes (not that there's anything wrong with playing a dumb brute, there just need to be other options).

2. Give fighters a bonus skill or two. Most other classes get it, why not fighters? Let them choose one or two of climb, drive, gather rumors, handle animal, intimidate, spot or survival, for example.

3. They could draw some inspiration from 4e's warlord class. I'm not talking about the warlord's healing powers, I'm talking about having the option to gain some tactical abilities that empower their allies and reward teamwork.

4. Let fighters (or anyone else, for that matter) learn ritual casting, if they're willing to invest feat(s) to do so. I don't think it's really stealing a cleric's or wizard's thunder if other classes can learn to use rituals, too.

 

[LostSoul]

I think there are three ways (probably more) to make fighters competitive:

• Give them magic items that allow them to use magic. A helm that protects you from magical compulsions. An amulet that allows you to travel to distant planes and survive. A ring that allows you to teleport. A sword that can see the future (when it devours souls).
• Allow them access to abilities that do some of the wizard's standard outlay: mind blank, teleport, flight, charm, summoning, divinations. Wizards would use the same process, maybe with more ease.
• Change the class to be magical after a certain point. "Moon Warrior: When the moon is out, you can teleport to any location that is lit by moonlight. You can see the future in the new moon, and during the full moon you are mind-blanked."

 

[dnlas]

on my opinion, balance means both A class and B role play the important role in game
Not B class can do whatever A class can do
Not B class 1v1 against A class

Cannons deal more dmg and greater attack range than spearmen but both necessary to win the battle.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Well, what they are doing in Next with the number and manner of spell scaling should help a lot. As I understand it, the core thing that drives "quadratic wizard" is that they get more and more spells--and the low level spells get better even as they high level spells get added.

Take magic missile in Next. Having to use a higher-level spell slot to get more missiles means that your first level slots aren't becoming killers merely because the wizard levels. In BECMI/AD&D, the wizard's upper power was constrained by not having that many spells. The wizard needed magic missile to scale. But since power was constrained by being rather stingy on the spell list, you had the under-powered wizard at low levels. Whereas Next is aiming for a decent assortment of spells early, but not so many as you grow.

I'm hard pressed to find a better way to have a "linear" wizard to match the fighter, but still keep each spell in it's traditionally, relatively powerful form. A mid-level wizard doesn't get a lot in the way of "new slots" when he levels, but the slots he gets represent a solid increase in power--without changing the nature of the lower-level slots he already has.

 

[Stormonu]

I think there are three ways (probably more) to make fighters competitive:

• Give them magic items that allow them to use magic. A helm that protects you from magical compulsions. An amulet that allows you to travel to distant planes and survive. A ring that allows you to teleport. A sword that can see the future (when it devours souls).

Personally, I'd like to avoid the christmas tree effect this would lean toward, or the "there's a magic item to fix that".

• Allow them access to abilities that do some of the wizard's standard outlay: mind blank, teleport, flight, charm, summoning, divinations. Wizards would use the same process, maybe with more ease.

I like this better, but I don't want to go the path Book of 9 Swords. A fighter whose will is so strong he can emulate the effects of mind blank I can deal with; fighters so agile and strong they can literally take a running leap onto a castle wall, the fighter who can go to a tavern and spill a purse full of gold on a table, shouting "Who wants to die rich!" and walk out with 13 strong sword arms (sort of a summons) and the like I think I can handle. I'm not against the warrior being a match for the wizard*, I just don't think we should resort to turning the fighter into a wizard just because it's a world of sword & sorcery.

• Change the class to be magical after a certain point. "Moon Warrior: When the moon is out, you can teleport to any location that is lit by moonlight. You can see the future in the new moon, and during the full moon you are mind-blanked."

ehhhhhh, maybe provide options for those DMs and Players who want to go that way, but I wouldn't want that to be core fighter ability in my game.


* Personally, I think the difference should be in the fact the wizard has to shepherd his power; the fighter is one whose power is in unrestraining himself - moving past "normal human" endurance. Yes, the wizard can be fearsome, but he's fragile, can only call out the big guns very rarely (whether because of drawbacks or severely limited resources) and just about anything the wizard can do the fighter has some way to counteract or emulate.

If the wizard can fly somewhere, the fighter can jump and climb to the same place. If the wizard can turn invisible, the fighter can learn to move so stealthily he's virtually unseen. If the wizard can throw up a barrier, the fighter IS a barrier. If the wizard can teleport somewhere, the fighter ought to be able to hop on a mount and race it to the same destination, flying through (and avoiding) unwanted encounters in his mad dash. Wizards may be able to do things quicker and without preparation, but they shouldn't be able to do it indefinitely or with unwavering reliability. Perhaps the wizard can only fly once a day; perhaps the flight has a random duration and simply "cuts out" rather than safely depositing the wizard on the ground. Teleports may be unreliable or are blocked by solid barriers, and so forth.

And, when it comes to combat, the wizard should be screaming at the fighter "Why...won't...you...die!" as the fighter avoids or pushes through the wizard's spells (while the fighter is praying the wizard doesn't get in a lucky shot). And in return, the wizard goes down from one blow - if the fighter can maneuver close enough (or, within bow range).

 

[Falling Icicle]

I think I should clarify a few things, as I did a poor job explaining myself in my original post.

First, I'm not suggesting that wizards should be just the way they were in past editions. I'm fine with reducing the number of spell slots, having concentration to limit spell stacking, and reducing the power of spells that were problematic in past editions. What I object to is the notion that wizards shouldn't be able to do things like fly or teleport at all. I think there are plenty of ways of balancing such powers without removing them from the game entirely.

Second, no, I don't want fighters to be able to fly or teleport (unless they have magic items, rituals or some other magical means of doing so, of course). What I want is for them to have thematically appropriate abilities for the other two non-combat pillars of play. Obviously they aren't going to do things like fly or turn people into toads. But there are plenty of things that they could do that would be amazing and powerful without being magical, such as skill tricks similar to those the rogue gets, but a different list of tricks that is thematically appropriate for the fighter class. The avantage these things would have over magic is their ease of use. You wouldn't see a fighter's "inspiring presence" have a daily limit or be able to be dispelled. That's where there's balance. Yes, a wizard can do things a fighter never can, but his powers also have limits and drawbacks that a fighter's powers don't.

 

[Li Shenron]

"How can a fighter and a wizard possibly be balanced when the wizard can do things like fly, teleport, and turn people into frogs?!"

...

We shouldn't try to balance wizards and fighters by making wizards suck.

I always wanted to try a game of D&D where all damaging spells were removed from the Wizard's list.

Make the Wizard think how to become effective in combat also without dealing damage at all. There are plenty of non-damaging spells which are useful in combat, thus the Wizard will hardly "suck". It just can't be played as a blaster or striker, it would have to totally focus on a combination of controller and supporter.

I suppose that this idea is way too extreme to most gamers who actually like to just blast enemies, but IMHO it would definitely be worth trying out some day.

 

[Tuft]

I always wanted to try a game of D&D where all damaging spells were removed from the Wizard's list.

Make the Wizard think how to become effective in combat also without dealing damage at all. There are plenty of non-damaging spells which are useful in combat, thus the Wizard will hardly "suck". It just can't be played as a blaster or striker, it would have to totally focus on a combination of controller and supporter.

I suppose that this idea is way too extreme to most gamers who actually like to just blast enemies, but IMHO it would definitely be worth trying out some day.

Played just such a wizard in the Dragonstar D20 fantasy/science fiction system.

When the fighters have an unlimited supply of lazcannon shots and 6d6 handgrenades, even at low levels, damage spells just did not cut it.

As that character also was a SoulMech in that system (think magical android), she was kind of patterned on "Bishop" in "Aliens".

And I found that dumping damage spells and filling up on utility spells was an *absolute, absolute fantastic blast* to play. (And that scroll storage in internal encrypted RAM rules!)

Ever since, I've gone damage weak, utility strong on all my casters, whenever I can. One of my big beefs with 4E when we ran our lvl 1-25 test campaign was that I could not do any such tradeoff...

 

[Falling Icicle]

I suppose that this idea is way too extreme to most gamers who actually like to just blast enemies, but IMHO it would definitely be worth trying out some day.

I have played such a wizard before. He didn't have a single damaging attack spell (unless you count telekinesis). But with grease, slow, and other crowd control effects, he was extremely effective at shutting down enemies. I had alot of fun trapping enemies in resilient spheres and stone walls, transmuting the floor under enemies into mud and then back into stone after they sunk waist deep in it, and so on. My favorite moment was when I used shrink item to shrink an anvil into a tiny cloth, which I put in my pocket. Later, when we got into a battle, I used mage hand to lift the cloth above an enemy, and then I uttered the command word to turn it back into an anvil. Splat. That was actually one of the most enjoyable characters I've ever played.

That said, I do enjoy blowing things up, and would hate to see wizards lose that option.

 

[Li Shenron]

My favorite moment was when I used shrink item to shrink an anvil into a tiny cloth, which I put in my pocket. Later, when we got into a battle, I used mage hand to lift the cloth above an enemy, and then I uttered the command word to turn it back into an anvil. Splat. That was actually one of the most enjoyable characters I've ever played.

Can't xp you yet, but this was very creative and pretty hilarious