Bull-rushing Into Occupied Square

[doktorstick]

I infer that if you bull-rush a person into an occupied square (ally or enemy), they fall prone. This is from the failed bull-rush wording that writes the attacker falls prone if he fails and his square is occupied.

What happens when someone is prone in your square and your turn comes up? Do you have to move? What if you can't move because you are surrounded by enemies? Do you fall prone?

Thanks.

/ds

 

[Zenon]

I don't think your inferal is correct.

Crude diagram -

(each range is a 5' square)

1-2 3-4 5-6 7-8
A----D--------B

A=Attacker, D=Defender, B=Defender's Buddy

If A bull rushes D, he moves into the same hex:

1-2 3-4 5-6 7-8
----AD-------B

If the attack succeeds, A can push D back 5'

1-2 3-4 5-6 7-8
----A----D---B

With an additional 1' per point A exceeds the roll by. Let's say he gets another 5'. A continues the push:

1-2 3-4 5-6 7-8
---------A---DB

the Defender has now been push into his buddies square. Does D fall prone? What effect does this have on B?

I haven't been able to find this anywhere in the rules (and if someone has, chime in please).

Relevant rules are that you can pass through an allies square with no penalty, but 2 people occupying the same 5' square is one of those Things That Was Never Meant To Be.

Now, a 5' on a side square is fairly large (lay some duct tape out on the ground sometime if you don't believe how big it is), so I can't see falling.

A hard and fast House Rule I use is that whenever you do not have an empty 5' square to move around in, you are denied your dex bonus to your AC. I use this for partial map squares with walls in them, and two people occupying the same square.

Also two creatures occupying the same square is never an action that you can choose, it should only come about from the result of an action like this. This prevents player abuse.

YMMV, the above seems to work for me.

[edit] I'll address some other of your points

having someone prone in your square who is active (meaning not unconscious) looses dex for both (see House Rule above). Having out cold people in you square doesn't resrtict you in any way.

If you would be forced back into a square containing an enemy, he could choose to either block you from passing into his square, or let you in and get an AoO for moving into it.

I guess if he blocked you from entering his square, I would give it a knockdown, ending prone in the square in front of the blocking enemy.

 

[doktorstick]

What about the following diagram:

YEA|

where Y is you, E is enemy, A is ally, | is a wall, and each letter represents a 5-ft. square. Can Y bull-rush E? What happens if Y wins the bull-rush?

/ds

 

[Zenon]

DISCLAIMER! The following are most likely House Rules unless someone can point us to a better explaination in the books!

With that being said-

At that point I would do something like this:

YEA|

You say that Y (attacker) Bull Rushes E, and A is an ally of Y.

Bull Rush claims that you attempt to push the defender straight back. Assuming Y made the rolls for a sucessful Bull Rush, I would do the following:

Ask A if he will allow movement into his square, or block E from entering.

If A blocks, then E falls prone in the same square with Y. See my above post in which I would deny both Y and E their dex modifiers. I might allow Y an AoO, since E really did try to move into A's square, but got pushed back into it. AoO would be subject to target % as under Bull Rush. On the first initiative cycle after this fiasco that either Y or E could do something, I would require that it include a move out of the same square.

If A allows their enemy E into his square, then both E and A are denied their dex (a reason why A might not want E in the same square!), but both are standing. A would be able to get an AoO on E for moving into the same square with him, subject to the Bull Rush rules for AoO %. Same as above, the first one who goes has to get out of the same square.

If Y has an additional 10' of rush, and A allows it, all three would end up in one big gaggle in A's original square! Nobody would have dex mods to AC, and I'd apply a -2 circumstance to attacks. A would get the AoO chance, modified by Bull Rush %. Same as above, on their moves everyone must at least physically move out of the square so that we're back to one attacker per square.

Finally, If Y had move than an additional 5', I would let him slam E into the wall (assuming A let them pass through), and apply falling damage (1d6 per 10' of rush) with a Balance check for E to stay on his/her feet. Y, E and A in same square, no dex to AC, -2 circumstance to further attacks, etc. Same as above, on their moves everyone must at least physically move out of the square so that we're back to one attacker per square.

Whew, that's a lot of DM shooting-from-the-hip calls, but unless someone can clarify the rules for Bull Rush, that's how I'd do it.

As an alternative, you could modify the Bull Rush "straight back" and let E move diagonally -

YEA| At start of Bull Rush

__E|
_YA| Let E move either up or down diagonal so you don't have
__E| the three-combatants in one square hassles.


What do you think?

 

[doktorstick]

You made a good go at it!

 

[Macbrea]

Relevant rules are that you can pass through an allies square with no penalty, but 2 people occupying the same 5' square is one of those Things That Was Never Meant To Be.

There are cases where two people can occupy the same square. Bull rushing someone results in the person being pushed backwards. In the rules to bullrush it states that you move backwards 5ft. If the combatant (guy, initaiting the bullrush) overran someone in the square before the guy he was bullrushing but fails to actually bullrush the person is stopped in the overrun square he falls down in his enemies square. If the guy he pushes backwards lands in a square occupied by someone then he occupies the same square. And is actually, still standing in the same square. The falling down part is only in relation to the combatant (attacker) not the defender. Now, it could possibly be argued that two people in the same square do not threat squares around them and have lost their dex adjustment to everyone around them because of an involentary grapple maneuver. But that would be a house rule.


The other example of when you actually enter another persons square and stay there is Grapple. Which states: To maintain the grapple, the combatant must move into the target's space.

So, to stated that two people cannot be in the same square isn't really a hard fast rule. What is stated is that two people in the same square do not threaten any other squares around them.