Building an Eldritch Knight

[The Souljourner]

So... I'm looking into the eldritch knight for a future campaign, and regardless of how much it may seem flavorless, I don't think it's under or over powered (at least not yet.... when/if I play one, I may change my mind. Anyway...) and I think it has a lot of flavor potential. The whole fighter guy with spells is a classic, and I think it could be fun.

So here's my take on the class - I think most people try to go the wrong way with the class - they try to maximize the casting at the expense of the rest of the fighter half. I don't believe that's the best way to build an EK. Anyone who loses at least two levels of a caster is just not going to be able to keep up with the straight casters of the party. Plus, because you want to be fightery, you want to have decent non-caster stats, as well as non-caster feats.

When you see a class with fighter BAB and some nifty features, what do you think? You think of what you can do with this guy when he has X weapons & armor. I think that's the way you have to treat the EK. Treat it like a fighter class, not a caster class. Think of it like a paladin whose casting doesn't suck.

So, this is my thought - Don't maximize the caster portion of the character, maximize the fighter portion, and let the spells bolster that.

So, first we have to pick the base classes. Sorcerer and Paladin seem destined to go together, since they both rely heavily on the same stat. The character has a lot of potential, but I don't know that it's what I want. Fighter/Wizard sounds about right to me. I would go fighter/sorcerer, but losing even more levels of sorcerer means an even slimmer pickings of spells, and I think it just dilutes the sorcerer more than a similarly levelled wizard. Plus, I'm starting with insane stats, so bonus spells are going to be plentiful.

Now, levels. We need at least 5 wizard levels to qualify, but I'm thinking 6 is perfect. 5th level of fighter is crap, but 6th level of wizard gets the extra BAB just like the fighter level, and some more spells per day, not to mention +1 to all three saves. Sweetness. That leaves 10 for EK.

Now, I know what you're thinking - "You're losing 5 caster levels when you only need to lose 2!" That is true.. however, keep this in mind - At 20th level this guy will have +17 BAB which is better than a cleric's, and enough to eke out that last iterative attack. The maximized caster build has only 15.. that extra +2 makes a big difference, besides the two fighter feats and specialization and better hitpoints. He'll have 15 caster levels, which means 8th level spells. That's fine... he's a fighter first, remember? Think of it this way - he's a 17th level fighter, who has gained 15 caster levels.. isn't that worth +3 level adjustment? I think so.

Thoughts welcome. I'm still working out the specifics (exactly which spells are best... strategies in combat, etc).

-The Souljourner

 

[youspoonybard]

But, in doing so, you've lost so many bonus feats...

In essense, you'll have to play a one-trick fighter. Any ideas on what that would be?

 

[Gnome Berzerker]

Make him a Dwarf.

With 10 of your levels being 1d6 HD, you're going to need a high CON. Besides, you want him to be more Fighter, right?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

On the fighter vs. Caster argument: Any time you have to take five or six spellcasting levels in order to take a class, that heavily biases it towards casters. Even your "fightery" version of the Eldritch Knight ends up with 15 caster levels.

Possible progressions:
Brd 8/Ftr 2/Eldritch Knight 10. Casting as a 17th level bard isn't too impressive (it's not too bad either though) but he can cast spells in light armor without spell failure and will end up with a +18 BAB.

For better charisma synergy but fewer feats, you could make that (ex) Bard 8/Pal 2/Eldritch Knight 10

For the best caster level, you could choose: Ftr 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 9/Sacred Exorcist 4. You end up with a +16 BAB that way which is still enough for the all-important fourth attack but you also have a caster level of 18--enough for 9th level spells.

On the spells section:

Sor/Wiz:

1. Shield (if you use a two handed weapon); Mage Armor (if you don't wear armor), Magic Missile (always good), Color Spray, Burning Hands (you need to be close to your foes), Protection From Evil, Ray of Enfeeblement (reduce your foes' strength so that you're not hit as often).

2. Scorching Ray (all around good spell); Flaming Sphere (good until level 6 or so--since you'll only have one attack, you can use it in conjunction with a partial attack while in melee), False Life (good for the front-line wizard), Mirror Image (best in combination with Blink to prolong the images' lives--this also prevents great cleave from countering all your images), Alter Self (Extra AC).

3. Blink (Use in conjunction with mirror image and the expert tactician feat (from song and silence). Also ought to render you immune to grappling); Heroism (good duration helps you hit and make saves); Magic Circle v. Evil (long-term AC), Slow (keep your foes from full attacking you).

4. Polymorph (Troll form--great for tripping, etc), Greater Invisibility (excellent in conjunction with Expert Tactician (and NonDetection), Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (spend unused 4th level open slots in the evening to get more spells on the next day), Ice Storm (a pretty good spell for a reduced caster level wizard with less than maximized int), Enervation.

 

[gfunk]

If you have the option of using Savage Species, you have a whole new dimension of choices with the Eldritch Knight. For example, races like the Rakshasa have spellcasting ability and proficiency with all martial weapons. Therefore, once you complete the Rakshasa progression, you can go straight into the EK.

A Rakshasa 14/EK 6
BAB = +13
Spells = As 12th level Sorcerer
SR = 33
DR = 15/good and piercing

Not bad . . .

 

[Grog]

Now, levels. We need at least 5 wizard levels to qualify, but I'm thinking 6 is perfect. 5th level of fighter is crap, but 6th level of wizard gets the extra BAB just like the fighter level, and some more spells per day, not to mention +1 to all three saves. Sweetness. That leaves 10 for EK.

Now, I know what you're thinking - "You're losing 5 caster levels when you only need to lose 2!" That is true.. however, keep this in mind - At 20th level this guy will have +17 BAB which is better than a cleric's, and enough to eke out that last iterative attack. The maximized caster build has only 15.. that extra +2 makes a big difference, besides the two fighter feats and specialization and better hitpoints. He'll have 15 caster levels, which means 8th level spells. That's fine... he's a fighter first, remember? Think of it this way - he's a 17th level fighter, who has gained 15 caster levels.. isn't that worth +3 level adjustment? I think so.

Thoughts welcome. I'm still working out the specifics (exactly which spells are best... strategies in combat, etc).

The problem is, you're kind of screwed as far as stats go... You need at least an 18 natural Intelligence to be able to cast 8th level spells. You'll definitely need a good Con for survivability, and you'll also need a good Dex because you won't be able to wear armor without suffering arcane failure chance. And, if you want to primarily be a fighter, you'll also need a good Str. That's four high stats - and on a 28 point buy, that's stretching yourself pretty thin.

The other major problem is hit points. If you're going to primarily act as a fighter, you'll probably be getting hit a lot, and you probably won't have the HP to last long on the front lines. Instead of having 20d10 HP, for an average of 114 or so + Con, you'll have 4d10 + 6d4 + 10d6, for an average of 76 or so + Con. And since your Con will be lower than a straight fighter's due to you having to spend points on a greater number of stats, you're likely to be down 60 HP or more from a straight fighter.

So I'd be careful before wading into the front lines if I were you. Even with all the good self-buffing spells out there, you'll probably still end up subpar.

Plus, your mid-levels are going to be hell. When you hit 10th level, you'll only have 3rd level spells and a +7 BAB. At that level, being short 3 BAB is going to make a difference. And next level, a single class fighter will get his 3rd attack, while you'll still be sitting at two.

I'm not saying the concept is worthless, or anything, but I do think it'll be somewhat difficult to play.

 

[green slime]

As an Eldritch Knight, you are a single fight wonder.

The number of buffs you can get going make up for your shortcomings, but they have such a limited duration that you really cannot afford to do much.

And if you are self-buffing, then you aren't blasting as much. So all in all, a rather strange class.

The big boost for this class is the BAB, which with a decent Dex means that your rays are going to hit. Choose those without save or SR and you are going to cause havoc.

But the loss of so many feats and the fact that you are trying to cover two bases means that you are going to be hard pressed. Playing an Eldritch Knight requires careful thought.

 

[Darklone]

What about a paladin2/spellsinger5 (KoK PG)?

You'll be able to cast in full armour, both use Charisma, you'll easily get full mileage of Power Attack, Divine Might and can take stuff like eyes of fury...

All you'd need would be good Cha, high con (at least 14) and acceptable strength (14).

Your only problem: No silent spells.

 

[bensei]

I think the idea of using the EK in order to build a fighter with casting instead of a caster with fighting can work out quite nicely. However, I still would recommend to take only few (1 or 2) levels of a fighting class (Ftr, Brb, Rgr, Pal), as at least a medium caster level is necessary for the buffs' duration.

Compared to a single class fighter, you'll face two major drawbacks: Less HP and less feats (besides minor drawbacks as -3 BAB). Those are strong drawbacks, but when considered in the right way, you character can still be very powerful.

First thing is HP. As already suggested, a dwarf is good choice for a Ftr/Wiz/EK. Give him an amulet of health, and a Con 18 or 20 will give an at least fair amount of HP.

As a fighter type, of course you should wear armor. At mid levels a magical mithral brestplate sounds nice, at higher levels a fancy enchanted mithral full plate could be even worth a though. Your advantage over a pure fighter here: The Shield spell, which gives a good AC bonus and you still can wield two handed weapons. An EK can get a fair AC.

Thick armor, of course, leads to the delicate point of arcane spell failure. Of course you could just risk the spell failure. I would not recommend this, however. Instead prepare combat spells stilled. Of course this raises the spell level, but spells like Shield or Bull's Strength are low level, so you can afford to do so. Additionally, you can have quite an amount of long lasting buffs (1 hour/level) and useful non-combat spells (charm person, divinations, etc.). Single class caster's normally focus on damage dealing and save or die spells (fireball, disintegrate, etc.). Hence, you should not concentrate on such spells, and instead fill the gaps which the firepower Sor/Wiz has (divinations, buffs, non-combat enchantments).
And finally, there are some spells without any somatic component. Particular interesting for a fighting EK is of course True Strike. Imagine you spend some your few feats on Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave. With True Strike you can knock down quite a amount of low level foes with one attack (and resulting cleave bonus attacks, to which the True Strike bonus also applies). If you wish, you can even trip every single opponent with the Improved Trip feat, because the True Strike bonus also applies to these attacks.

I think a fighter centred EK can be quite effective in the sum, and can be a lot of fun to play.

 

[Darklone]

I think a fighter centred EK can be quite effective in the sum, and can be a lot of fun to play.

Biggest problem here: You need several buff spells to be on par with a warrior of your own level.