Bugbear PC - Help please

[JoeBlank]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I am just not learned in the ways of converting monsters into potential player characters. This process is supposed to be simplified by the addition of the "______ As Characters" section to the descriptions in the 3.5 Monster Manual. Alas, I don't have that book yet.

But I just got an idea for a bugbear PC, so I just want to be sure I am reading the SRD correctly. I presume that if I am going to play a bugbear as a PC, with core class levels but no "humanoid" levels, then he gets most of the things listed in the following description:

BUGBEARS AS CHARACTERS
Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits.
¡X +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, ¡V2 Charisma.
¡XMedium size.
¡XA bugbear¡¦s base land speed is 30 feet.
¡XDarkvision out to 60 feet.
¡XRacial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
¡XRacial Skills: A bugbear¡¦s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x ƒn(2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
¡XRacial Feats: A bugbear¡¦s humanoid levels give it two feats.
¡X +3 natural armor bonus.
¡X +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
¡XAutomatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
¡XFavored Class: Rogue.
¡XLevel adjustment +1.

(quoted from the SRD 3.5)

So, if my PC is going to be a Rogue 1/Cleric 3, does he get everything listed above except: Racial Hit Dice, Racial Skills, and Racial Feats? And his effective character level is 5?

Thanks.

 

[clark411]

ECL = Level Adjustment + Racial HD.

So a Bugbear is an ECL +4 (3 from its HD, one from LA)

If your character is going to be ECL 5, he'll only have one class level.

If you're going by Savage Species rules, then the only way an monstrous class can advance into classes is by completing its racial levels and earning its HD, racial abilities, and feats. Just keep in mind that a Bugbear in the MM is a Warrior 1, so has its first class level feat picked out.

Taking no Bugbear HD is, at best, a rather large stretch out of the rules put down by SS, as it sets the idea that at least some of the stat boosts you're aiming to get (given what you've thought of removing in exchange for not counting HD) are usually tied to Bugbear Racial Levels. A 1 HD Bugbear may start out with only +2 Str and -2 Cha... and get the additional +2 Str along with +2 Con in it's 3rd HD for example.

 

[JoeBlank]

See, if you ask me, the mark of true genius is to know one's own ignorance.

Obviously, I did not know what I was doing here, but at least I knew enough to ask.

Thanks, clark411.

 

[diaglo]

i've got a spare copy of each of the 3.11ed core books . i can loan them to you Sunday.

 

[JoeBlank]

Thanks, diaglo. I have the PHB, just have not gotten around to picking up the others yet.

See you Sunday.

 

[NekoAli]

Technically true... You are *required* to take the racial hit dice when making a monstrous character... but my question is why? Racial hit dice are left over from previous editions, before monsters could take levels. Now, I agree that for monsters, it's a quick way to stat out the creatures your players beat on week after week... but when making up a PC, why would they have to take the racial levels? Maybe your bugbear wasn't all big and strong like the rest of his people, but was sneaky, or good at magic instead?

After getting Savage Species I made up a house rule that when making up a monstrous character, you didn't have to take the racial hit dice, just make a first level character and apply the level adjustment. Or you could take racial levels, it was up to the player. And wasn't that a big buzz phrase for 3rd and 3.5 ed? More player options, fewer restrictions?

 

[clark411]

Racial levels exist because a Bugbear with 3 levels of Bugbear (or is it 1 level? I can't remember if the LA [+2 for BB] is applied before completion of the Racial levels) is supposedly on par with a Human or Elf with three class levels. It may be a hold over from previous editions, but Savage Species was written with an explicit acknowledgement that monsters could take class levels when they were done advancing normally OR they could advance, in specific examples, simply by size and HD. That this concept is a hold over from previous editions hardly invalidates it in the current system- if for no other reason than the existance of class levels and specific classes in previous editions.

The decision to place options over balance is a tenuous one, although hardly invalidated by the risks involved. The problem is, when your average player is faced with two options, invariably he will pick whichever is in his best interests. Ideally, both options should be roughly balanced, neither mechanically superior by far, but this isn't the case if you have any monstrous race have the option to have all the benefits of its ability adjustments and special abilities without taking actual monster levels or a proper ECL hit.

The Key Point: Options should be about choices but not necessarily obvious choices.

A bugbear PC with all the advantages of a bugbear without the racial HD/levels (and has normal PC class levels instead) is obviously better than a bugbear PC that has taken the racial levels.
Alternately, a bugbear PC that has an ECL commesurate with its superiority over the ECL +0 classes, but no Racial HD, will be pathetic in combat (my ECL +4 Bugbear Fighter with 12 HP after con, alongside Human Fighter 5's with 48 HP.)

 

[Spatula]

After getting Savage Species I made up a house rule that when making up a monstrous character, you didn't have to take the racial hit dice, just make a first level character and apply the level adjustment. Or you could take racial levels, it was up to the player.

The level adjustments are balanced with the assumption that the PC has the racial HD, which aren't "worth" as much as class HD (as you get no inherent abilities from the racial HD). Remove the HD and the level adjustment is probably too small - this becomes more true as the racial HD increases, or as the special abilities pile up. A bugbear without HD but the same LA is probably OK, a mind flayer without HD but the same LA is not. And in any case, a choice between racial HD and class HD is not much of choice (especially for spellcasters).

And wasn't that a big buzz phrase for 3rd and 3.5 ed? More player options, fewer restrictions?

Having a systematic method for turning monsters into PC races is a big option that didn't exist in previous editions. And just because you have the option doesn't mean it's going to be a desireable one. 3E Wizards have the option of casting spells while wearing full plate armor, but they don't have the option of doing it effectively.

 

[Jhyrryl]

MM Example

I'll note that if you look at the Harpy and Harpy Archer entries in the MM, the Harpy Archer was allowed to replace all of its standard racial feats with feats appropriate to the creature's intended function. But it (and every other advanced-by-class example creature) still had to take the racial HD.

I used this creature in a recent random encounter as the thrall of a beholder. It was quite fun.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

I'll have to pipe in on this one... The rules from SS where designed to make it you stop and think, Do I really want my 1st level bugbear, when I can have a 5th level human? Now being an "advid" bugbear advocate I would like to think that 3 levels of humanoid would be enough of a negataive and that one doesn't need a an ECL of +1 but that's simply not the case. A bugbear needs those three levels of humanoid and a ECL +1 to make them even as they are a powerhouse as a rogue, fighter, ranger, and almost ungodly as a barbarian!. A bugbear takes no negatives in abilties that a wizard, or sorcerer would want, and they also have natual armor making and what magic user wouldn't want to have a good armor class? Clerics work well too, now your never going to see a PHB palidan and maybe thats for the best.

In my signature their is a link to the bugbear I play on the board, look for the "RG".