Break Enchantment is stone crazy!

[Magus Coeruleus]

Hi there,

I have a few questions regarding the Break Enchantment spell and petrification:

1) Can Break Enchantment be used to reverse petrification from a Gorgon's breath or Medusa's gaze? On the one hand, nothing in the spell specifies that it works on spells only. On the other hand, it assumes a caster level for the effect to be undone.

2) If Break Enchantment can be used to reverse a non-spell-based enchantment, alteration, curse, or petrification, how do you set the DC for the caster level check (normally 11 + caster level of the targeted effect) if there is no caster level given for that effect (e.g. monster special attacks resulting in petrification)?

3) Flesh to Stone is a 6th-level spell that has an instantaneous duration and cannot be dispelled (the Dispel Magic description specifies both instantaneous duration spells and petrification as effects on which it will not work). In the PHB, Break Enchantment specifically mentions Flesh to Stone as a spell it can reverse. It also says that if a spell cannot be dispelled with Dispel Magic, then Break Enchantment can only reverse it if it is a spell of 5th-level or less. Taken together, this does not make sense. Either Flesh to Stone cannot be affected by Break Enchantment, or Break Enchantment can affect at least that one particular 6th-level spell. I notice that the SRD, unlike the PHB, does NOT mention Flesh to Stone as an example spell that can be undone with Break Enchantment in the latter's description. What gives?

4) Why would anyone use Stone to Flesh to reverse Flesh to Stone instead of Break Enchantment. BE is 5th level, while StF is 6th level. BE has a chance of failure, but there is no other negative consequence and it can be tried again. StF is automatically successful, but requires a DC 15 Fort save or the restored creatures DIES. BE affects 1 creature/level, while StF affects only one creature. It seems to me that StF is so risky, no one would want to use it, and would rather take their chances at failure with the caster level check for BE. What's worse, failing the caster level check and having to try again at some point, or failing the Fort save and DYING? I really don't understand why the DC is so high, or even why there's one at all, frankly.

Thanks,
MC

From the SRD Sor/Wiz spell list: "Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification."

From the SRD spell description:

Break Enchantment
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25.
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects.

 

[Henrix]

1. I don't know. Prior to the revision it said "from enchantments, transmutations, curses, and petrifications" but in 3.5 the petrification is omitted.
It might be that the reversal of the flesh to stone is a leftover, and that Break Enchantment no longer works against any spell with a level higher than 5.

2. A supernatural ability has a caster level equal to the number of Hit Dice the creature has, if nothing else is mentioned. See the MM description of special abilitites.

3. Petrification used to be a condition that Break Enchantment could, well, break, regardless of the source. Now I'm not sure.

4. Well, prior to the revision it could be because you did not have a 9th lvl Cleric at hand, as it only was on the Cleric, Bard and Luck lists.
Maybe the Wizard doesn't know Break Enchantment, but has a scroll of Stone to Flesh. Statues are heavy to carry around.
It might be they removed the petrification bit from Break Enchantment just because of this.

I'd say that Break Enchantment no longer works against petrification. (Unless the petrification arose from a spell lvl 5 or lower.)

 

[der_kluge]

No, I don't think so. Once the petrification has occurred, it's over with. Then it's just a regular stone statue. No kind of dispelling will reverse it.

 

[Caliban]

No, I don't think so. Once the petrification has occurred, it's over with. Then it's just a regular stone statue. No kind of dispelling will reverse it.

Except that Break Enchantment specifically reverses Flesh to Stone even though it's instantaneous.

 

[drnuncheon]

No, I don't think so. Once the petrification has occurred, it's over with. Then it's just a regular stone statue. No kind of dispelling will reverse it.

"Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect." - PHB 3.5 page 207.

It occurs to me that the clause "if the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic" may be intended to indicate spells which specifically call out dispel magic as being disallowed in their description - like the bestow curse that is used as an example. A break enchantment couldn't be used to get rid of a bestow curse that had been heightened to 6th level+.

J

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

2. A supernatural ability has a caster level equal to the number of Hit Dice the creature has, if nothing else is mentioned. See the MM description of special abilitites.

Hey Henrix, can you point me to the page or section of the MM that says this? I can't seem to find it. The closest thing I can find is that the save DC is 10 + 1/2 HD + relevant ability modifier. This seems to mirror spell save DCs, since max spell level is 1/2 caster level (although rounding up instead of down). Is this what you're working off of, or is there somewhere that is specifically says a (Su) CL = creature HD?

Thanks,
MC

 

[green slime]

In 3.0 the reason one used the flesh to stone spell to break the petrification, could be because break enchantment was only clerical or bardic spell, whereas now it has been granted to all and sundry. So if the cleric was the one turned to stone, the party had to resort to the risky flesh to stone to recover their cleric.

So the 3.5e text is probably a relic of bygone days...

 

[Henrix]

Hey Henrix, can you point me to the page or section of the MM that says this?

Sure, here it is:
3.5 MM, p.315, Special abilities: Supernatural abilities; "Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice."

The same goes for Spell-like abilities, just a couple of lines higher up on the same page.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Sure, here it is:
3.5 MM, p.315, Special abilities: Supernatural abilities; "Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice."

The same goes for Spell-like abilities, just a couple of lines higher up on the same page.

Thanks!

 

[Zentermi]

I would look for Errata on Break enchantment.

quote:

"Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect." - PHB 3.5 page 207.

As far as I knew, Instantaneous effects were just that... they had their effect and then were gone. Meaning they were no longer in effect. So "Break Enchantment" would be breaking a non-existant magical effect by that interpretation.

Flesh to Stone IMO goes like this... Person walking along. Person is non-magical flesh bag. Flesh to Stone cast upon him. Person is now a standing person composed of non-magical stone. A normal statue(bones may not be affected by this spell).

Polymorph tho... I believe is a continuous effect, and so would be subject to this spell.

Used in the context of the quote... this spell is ENORMOUSLY powerful, due to the fact that all cure spells are instantaneous(AFAIK). Imagine all that sweet, sweet CLW loving you've been getting all day, was just gone. Cuz the 5 wizzies guarding BBEG all cast Break Enchantment at your party.