Pathfinder 1E Brass knuckles question

[Daniel Runge]

I've been making a custom inventory list for the campaign I will be running with some new players, (mainly for simplification and reducing the options but still keeping the relevant stuff) and I was looking through the various lists on d20pfsrd when I came across the brass knuckles.

Fortunately 1 of the books I actually own for myself is the APG (Advanced Player's Guide), so I looked it up to see what difference there was between the 2 versions.
In the APG, a monk could deal his increased unarmed strike damage with the brass knuckles, and so I assume you could enchant them and as such get a slightly easier way to overcome DR than otherwise? Pricewise, it seems to be a cheaper option than the amulet of mighty fists.
On that note - what book is the amulet of mighty fists from?

Also Gauntlets - They are identical to brass knuckles on every aspect except for 4; the monk damage (on the old knuckles), the grouping (the new knuckles are not unarmed but rather light), the knuckles have a clause about casting while wearing them (The gauntlets do not), and the price(1 gp on knuckles, 2 on the gauntlets).

So my question is: "Should I include the new version of the brass knuckles, or the old? And why."
I wish to know a few of the potential balance issues, or if someone knows why they changed the knucles in the first place.

In the first place, why do we have these new brass knuckles when we have the gauntlets? Monks can deal lethal damage with their unarmed strikes by default, so no need to use the knuckles for flurry (they are monk weapons), and no one else needs to use the knuckles, with access to the gauntlets, which have no clause about casting while wearing them.

looking forward to your replies
Daniel

 

[Nagol]

Gauntlets are part of armour and therefore wearing them counts as wearing armour (to the detriment of arcane casters and monks).

Brass knuckles are a weapon and not considered armour. That's why they have different rules for spell failure. The new version doesn't offer the monk the ability to pass through his unarmed damage -- it's just another monk weapon that can be enchanted: a variation of the sai, really.

Amulet of Mighty Fists was originally published in the DMG1 of 3.X so I would expect to find it in the main Pathfinder book.

 

[Ramaster]

I checked the SRD. It didn't say anything about letting you keep your monk unarmed damage, but it had an editor's note that said: "This reflects the most recent version of the brass knuckles, which differs from the version in the Advanced Player's Guide."

So I went to the Paizo forums and made a quick search for Brass Knuckles. On a thread from JUN 2013 a poster asked this very same question and several other people said that, at first, you WERE allowed to use your monk DMG but that it got errata so that you can’t.

All in all, by RAW and RAI, you can't do it. It wouldn't be unreasonable to house rule it and let them use them; replacing the damage and getting the normal price for the enhancements (2k for a +1 knuckle, 8k for a +2, etc, like ALL OTHER WEAPONS). It's not like the monk is overpowered or anything like that.

As an additional note, I found out that the Amulet of Mighty Fists got its price slightly reduced. The +1 version used to be 5k and now is 4k. So, even if your DM doesn't allow you to use the knuckles... well, that's something!

 

[Kinak]

So my question is: "Should I include the new version of the brass knuckles, or the old? And why."

Personally, I'd allow the monk to pass through the unarmed damage. Because, really, making monks' lives a little easier isn't hurting anyone.

However, I understand why they don't want it to work that way by the rules. Using your unarmed damage when you're armed is just sort of weird, from a design perspective.

On that note - what book is the amulet of mighty fists from?

Core Rulebook.

There's also some updates here.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Daniel Runge]

Personally, I'd allow the monk to pass through the unarmed damage. Because, really, making monks' lives a little easier isn't hurting anyone.

However, I understand why they don't want it to work that way by the rules. Using your unarmed damage when you're armed is just sort of weird, from a design perspective.

I found myself thinking the same thing, except for the fact that they are "knuckles" and so would only give their bonuses when striking with your hands, and not any other part of your body, even though a monk can legally use his elbows, knees or feet for unarmed strikes.

Fx. the attack granted by the feat Vicious Stomp would get no bonuses from the brass knuckles. (being a stomp)

Or is that just me?

Thanks for the reply as well, I found it quite helpful

 

[Kinak]

I found myself thinking the same thing, except for the fact that they are "knuckles" and so would only give their bonuses when striking with your hands, and not any other part of your body, even though a monk can legally use his elbows, knees or feet for unarmed strikes.

Fx. the attack granted by the feat Vicious Stomp would get no bonuses from the brass knuckles. (being a stomp)

Or is that just me?

It's not just you by any means, although I've found most monks describe almost solely punches, so it ends up working out. If you do go with knuckles passing through unarmed damage, I'd still count it in corner cases like Vicious Stomp just to save on bookkeeping.

Thanks for the reply as well, I found it quite helpful

You're welcome

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Daniel Runge]

I checked the SRD. It didn't say anything about letting you keep your monk unarmed damage, but it had an editor's note that said: "This reflects the most recent version of the brass knuckles, which differs from the version in the Advanced Player's Guide."

This is what made me look it up in the first place. Considering the answers, I will allow my players to use the original version of the brass knuckles from the APG before erratas.

Thanks for the answers, have pleasant days
Daniel

 

[gamerprinter]

Agreed, for the sake of a home game allowing unarmed combat through use of brass knuckles seems viable.

However, the idea that brass knuckles are just "knuckles" is a poor argument. Its not really an extension of your hand, rather its a hand-held weapon, no matter how small it is. A club cannot be used with unarmed combat, and brass knuckles are hardly different than a club (just a shorter or non-existent haft). Plus the combination of several items plus allowing brass knuckles to add bonus martial arts damage allows unfair stacking of bonuses - that's why its not allowed by RAW.