Bolts, Open Lock and Thief Tools

[BigRedRod]

Several times during the course of my DMing I've included doors which were bolted from the inside, and in each case my players have usually fallen in to a well of despair at the sight of them and set about forcing their way through the portal.

I use interior bolts on doors where it makes sense but I'm not fond of them simply being a tool for me to force the players in to making a noisy entrance. Recently a player brought up that most likely in a set of Thief tools (especially in a masterwork set) one would find a selection of small sturdy metal saws that can quietly and reasonably quickly break through a bolt which is accessible from the other side of the door.

And here I reach a bit of confusion as I seem to have stepped outside the rules and my own common sense is failing to provide a neat solution.

So, in general :
How does D&D allow characters (with particular reference to rogues) to bypass bolted doors directly? (i.e. not by waiting for it to be unbolted and sneaking through)

And specifically :
Should a Theif tool kit include metal saws? How long would sawing a bolt take? Is there a skill check involved? How noisy is this activity?

Any thoughts on the matter would be warmly welcomed

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Thieve's and Sneakiness..

If I was a real thief in a DnD setting.. and was looking at adventuring into the depths of a treasure laden dungeon..here are my answers:

Thieves Kit..includes, among other things:
Small saw, capable of cutting an inside bolt, or a set of manacles a guard put on me.
Slim-jim, capable of manipulated an inside bolt for those cases were locking the door behind me is a good thing.
Various pick and spikes for forcing locks to turn.
Hammer, with a padded striking surface.
5 wax candles.
Wand of Unseen Servant.. for unlatching doors and stuff from the other side.
A couple vials of strong acid for pouring into Amazing Locks.. turning them into Amazing goo
.. and if the character is rich.. a Portable Hole (the Warner Brothers variety )

A well prepared theif can break most natural defenses. A saying I strongly beleive in, for the real world as well as DnD, is that locks exist to keep honest people out...

As to the Rules involved, use an Open Locks skill check and a Move Silently check for sawing the door open. A skill check would be a standard action in combat. The DC would depend on the material and thickness of the latch/bolt. Treat the latch/bolt the same as any other lock, so DC 20 for a simple lock is the same as a small diameter metal bolt, etc..

Now.. if you as the DM want to force a noisy entrance, the latch could be double latched in a manner unreachable from the other side of the door. The DC of such a latch would be 40, same as an Amazing lock.

That being said, and being a player who prefers to play roguish characters.. having an Amazing lock on the door to the pantry is patently silly. Have your defenses make sense. Only the key doors, such as to the outside or treasure vaults, would have major locks built in. Doors latched from the inside, by default, need to have someone on the inside to latch them.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Any thief worth his salt will have the means to deal with bolt-lock doors. Really, IMO, any door with a locking mechanism should be able to be defeated by an Open Lock check. The DC may be high, but anything the installer can think of can also be thought of by would-be thieves. And D&D is a fantasy setting with fantasy solutions to mundane problems...

 

[argo]

As the saying goes "locks are put on doors to keep honest people honest". In other words unless your door is a bank vault there hasn't been a lock invented that a properly skilled locksmith/thief can't get past in five minutes or less. If it is a bank vault then it still will not keep them out, just make them take an hour or two. There are probably several ways to open a bolt lock depending on the nature of the door in question: you could saw through the bolt or slip a special probe through to lift/slide it, you might be able to use a magnet from the other side of the door to move the bolt if the bolt is metal or you could drive a wedge through the door frame to open enough of a space to the other side to disloge the bolt from the door jamb (I've seen this done IRL). The method will vary depending on the type of door and lock encountered but a person with ranks in the skill is assumed to be able to analyze the puzzle in front of him and pick the correct method as part of his trainning in the skill.

From a purely gamist standpoint it also isn't fair to arbitrairly declare certain types of locks "unpickable". If your player is puting his character resources into the skill then he should be allowed to use it. Open Locks is a limited enough skill already.

Hope that helps.

 

[Starglim]

The equipment listing in the Players' Handbook describes what's in a kit of thieves' tools, including a long-nosed clamp and a small hand saw. I'd say those are suitable either to shift a metal bolt or cut through a wooden bar.

Masterwork tools include extra tools suitable for an even wider range of fastenings. I would assume that includes a hacksaw. If those fail, I'd regard a flask of acid as reasonable equipment for a mid-level thief.

 

[BigRedRod]

My problem with just applying open lock to the situation is that the skill description states quite clearly that it is a mastery of just openingvarious kinds of lock. Sawing through a bolt seems a little detached.

I'm not trying to make my players make noisy entrances through bolted doors. I just wanted clarrification on the mechaical aspects of a rogue bypassing a door sealed with a bolt rather than a lock

 

[Storyteller01]

Let me know if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming your bolt is the 'slide in place and pivot' variety and not a mechanical bolt lock?

Bladder, thin glass straw, and powerful acid. Unless this is new or masterwork door, there'll be plenty of space to slip the straw in. Use acid to melt through the bolt.

String and hook: Slip string (something thin but strong) over the bolt, then use a hook the feed it back to you. Do this a few times. When you are ready, use the string to rotate the bolt so it unlocks. From there use a thin wedge (akin to a screwdriver) to walk in out of postion. Shouldn't take more than a few seconds. Once its out of position, you can remove the string and keep working the bolt back.

 

[Someone]

A couple vials of strong acid for pouring into Amazing Locks.. turning them into Amazing goo

If the acid eats metal, that means you have to keep it in ceramic or glass containers. Somehow, the thought of fragile vials of acid (or alchemist fire...) in my backpack, ready to breack at the smallest fall and eating my spine away is... disturbing.

 

[Storyteller01]

I don't know how much noise sawing the bolt would make. Is the bolt made of metal or wood?

Here's a thought for those wooden bolts, if your rogue has time and money to commissin a custom item. It's a common item now, but I don't know about the medival era.

String saw: Have a thin specialized chain made with a large loop on either end. The links have to stay in line, no free floating. Have one side of each chain link sharpened with a sloping edge, just as saw blades are constructed. Loop this item around the bolt, and pull on the loops to saw through the bolt. Should be quieter than the standrad saw.

 

[BigRedRod]

I was talking about metal slide bolts, although I'm more than happy to extend the conversation to rulings on other methods of keeping things closed.