Bluff Check, Feinting in Combat, and Rogues
- Thread starter Weeble
- Start date
KnowTheToe
First Post
The rogue makes a bluff check against the warrior. A successful Bluff will deny his opponent their dex bonus. I believe this is right.
Since sence motive is not in many class skills, it makes it easy for the rogue to do. I feel I am missing something, maybe others will chime in.
Since sence motive is not in many class skills, it makes it easy for the rogue to do. I feel I am missing something, maybe others will chime in.
Yup...standard action, or at the very least a MEA (with appropriate feats)...
So, every other round a rogue can get one sneak attack. Meanwhile the fighter is taking a full attack action and laying some serious smack down on the rogue. It all evens out in the end.
Now, a rogue with Expert Tactician and Quicker than the Eye can get multiple attacks in one round, with one of them being a sneack attack. The important bit to remember is that when you bluff in combat, your next attack (and ONLY your next attack) is considered a sneak attack.
So, every other round a rogue can get one sneak attack. Meanwhile the fighter is taking a full attack action and laying some serious smack down on the rogue. It all evens out in the end.
Now, a rogue with Expert Tactician and Quicker than the Eye can get multiple attacks in one round, with one of them being a sneack attack. The important bit to remember is that when you bluff in combat, your next attack (and ONLY your next attack) is considered a sneak attack.
kreynolds
First Post
Weeble said:
Bluffing wouldn't have any effect on nor limit the fighter's actions. He is simply denied his Dex bonus to AC for the next attack. On the fighter's turn, he's free to do whatever he wants, just like usual. It doesn't prevent him from "laying some serious smack down".
Besides, a fighter has a pretty good chance of really dishing out the damage.
EDIT: And before you reply with a "I didn't say that." or "I didn't say that it would." or "Stop putting things in my mouth.", let me just point out that the part of dr_nukem's post that you quoted consisted of two different parts.
The first part is this...
dr_nukem said:
The second part is this...
dr_nukem said:
So, if you wonder why I say you're vague, there you go. You replied to a quoted two-part post simply with...
Weeble said:
...so you shouldn't be surprised when somebody comes along and isn't sure of what exactly you're referring too. Let me explain...
If you were replying to the first part of dr_nukem's post, then you're mistaken on how bluff works. If you were replying to the second part of dr_nukem's post, then that's different.
Have a nice day.
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kreynolds said:
If you were replying to the first part of dr_nukem's post, then you're mistaken on how bluff works. If you were replying to the second part of dr_nukem's post, then that's different.
Have a nice day.
Make it easly on yourself and see that the Bluffing the Fighter part was just an example. I didn't imply (as you seem to think) that the Rogue would somehow automatically hit the Fighter, and I didn't imply (as you seem to think) that the Rogue would somehow crit the Fighter with a Sneak Attack thus not worrying about some future "smack down" by the Fighter. Saying that "a Fighter will 'smack down' a Rogue before a Bluff/Sneak Attack is inevitable" is a rather foolish thing to say, considering that many circumstances could effect the outcome, including ANY scenario that dind't involve a simple one on one battle between the two in a 10' square section with a ring announcer's bell. One such circumstance involves the Fighter being Bluffed by the Rogue.
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Well, kreynolds is right. An average fighter vs. an average rogue, the fighter decimates the rogue every time. Let's take two examples- in each we'll assume that the rogue tries to bluff the fighter, then attacks, etc.
Level 1:
Fighter stats: 15 13 14 10 12 8 (iconic fighter), equipment Scale Mail, Large Shield, Longsword, AC 17, Feats Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Power Attack.
Atk +3, damage d8+2. Hps 12.
Rogue stats: 12 15 10 14 8 13 (putting 13 in charisma to aid bluffing potential, otherwise iconic rogue). Equipment: Rapier, Studded Leather, AC 16 (including Dodge). Atk +1, damage d6+1; Feats: Improved Initiative, Dodge. Rogue has 6hps.
Round 1: Assume rogue wins initiative. Attack fighter, chance to hit=30%, average damage on hit (2d6+1) =8. Therefore, average damage is 2.4. FIghter has 9.6 hps remaining
Fighter attacks next. Chance to hit= 45%, average damage on hit is (d8+2)=6.5. Average damage is just over 2.5. Therefore, even when the rogue is sneak attacking, fighter does more damage AND since rogue has fewer hps, rogue will invariably lose (his going first reduces the fighter to 9.6, still commensurately more than his mere 6). NB The rogue has the same average chance to get a critical- his threat range is larger, but his confirmation range is smaller, so it balances out.
Level 10:
Fighter stats: 17(19) 13 14 10 12 8, equipment +2 Full-Plate, +2 Amulet of NA, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Longsword, +2 Large Shield. AC 28. Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Improved Crit, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Expert Tactician, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Death Blow. Atk +17/+12, damage d8+8 (average 12.5). HPs 80.5.
Rogue stats: 12 17(19) 10 14 8 13, equipment +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, +2 Amulet of NA, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Rapier, +2 Mithral Buckler. AC 28 (including Dodge). Feats: Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Quicker than the Eye. Atk +10/+5, damage d6+3 (average 6.5, or 23 if sneak attacking). HPs 38
Round 1: Assume rogue wins initiative. Attacks flat-footed fighter, chance to hit=20%, average damage on hit is 23, therefore average damage is 4.6. Fighter then uses full-attack, chances to hit= 50%, 25%, average damge on hit=12.5. Therefore, average damage is around 8.5 (more than the rogue by quite a margin). The rogue has now the option of bluffing as an MEA (QttE) and then attacking, in which case he will lose (fighter does more average damage AND has more HPs) or spring attacking (can more further). However, this doesn't help. His average damage dealt drops to 20% of 6.5, a mere 1.3hps, and the fighter can simply charge him to make up the difference. Ergo, the rogue loses.
I couldn't be bothered to do a top-level example, it would take too long, but these two illustrate the case adequately: a fighter vs. a rogue of equivalent level will win unless the rogue has incredible luck.
Level 1:
Fighter stats: 15 13 14 10 12 8 (iconic fighter), equipment Scale Mail, Large Shield, Longsword, AC 17, Feats Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Power Attack.
Atk +3, damage d8+2. Hps 12.
Rogue stats: 12 15 10 14 8 13 (putting 13 in charisma to aid bluffing potential, otherwise iconic rogue). Equipment: Rapier, Studded Leather, AC 16 (including Dodge). Atk +1, damage d6+1; Feats: Improved Initiative, Dodge. Rogue has 6hps.
Round 1: Assume rogue wins initiative. Attack fighter, chance to hit=30%, average damage on hit (2d6+1) =8. Therefore, average damage is 2.4. FIghter has 9.6 hps remaining
Fighter attacks next. Chance to hit= 45%, average damage on hit is (d8+2)=6.5. Average damage is just over 2.5. Therefore, even when the rogue is sneak attacking, fighter does more damage AND since rogue has fewer hps, rogue will invariably lose (his going first reduces the fighter to 9.6, still commensurately more than his mere 6). NB The rogue has the same average chance to get a critical- his threat range is larger, but his confirmation range is smaller, so it balances out.
Level 10:
Fighter stats: 17(19) 13 14 10 12 8, equipment +2 Full-Plate, +2 Amulet of NA, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Longsword, +2 Large Shield. AC 28. Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Improved Crit, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Expert Tactician, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Death Blow. Atk +17/+12, damage d8+8 (average 12.5). HPs 80.5.
Rogue stats: 12 17(19) 10 14 8 13, equipment +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, +2 Amulet of NA, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Rapier, +2 Mithral Buckler. AC 28 (including Dodge). Feats: Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Quicker than the Eye. Atk +10/+5, damage d6+3 (average 6.5, or 23 if sneak attacking). HPs 38
Round 1: Assume rogue wins initiative. Attacks flat-footed fighter, chance to hit=20%, average damage on hit is 23, therefore average damage is 4.6. Fighter then uses full-attack, chances to hit= 50%, 25%, average damge on hit=12.5. Therefore, average damage is around 8.5 (more than the rogue by quite a margin). The rogue has now the option of bluffing as an MEA (QttE) and then attacking, in which case he will lose (fighter does more average damage AND has more HPs) or spring attacking (can more further). However, this doesn't help. His average damage dealt drops to 20% of 6.5, a mere 1.3hps, and the fighter can simply charge him to make up the difference. Ergo, the rogue loses.
I couldn't be bothered to do a top-level example, it would take too long, but these two illustrate the case adequately: a fighter vs. a rogue of equivalent level will win unless the rogue has incredible luck.
