Berbalang

[CapnZapp]

Sorry for posting this again, but the general forum was clearly the wrong choice for these questions, and I couldn't fork it here and it wasn't mod-moved. So here goes:

Questions regarding this monster (MM page 34):

First and most important question: is it at all possible to tell the original apart from the duplicates? Or do you need to realize "let's attack the one not causing psychic damage?".

"Duplicates last until the berbalang reaches 0 hit points, absorbs them, or uses sacrifice."
So a duplicate isn't "killed" when it reaches zero hp, only when the berbalang itself does?!?

"A duplicate must stay within 10 squares of the berbalang at all times or it disappears."
So one easy way of winning the fight is to force-move the berbalang out of range of its duplicates? (Not outright winning, but at least depriving the monster of its "allies", and a bucketload of hp as well)

"When the berbalang manifests a duplicate, the berbalang loses one-quarter of its current hit points"
So each manifested duplicate has less hp than the last?
#1: 102 hp (Barbalang has 306 hp remaining)
#2: 76 hp (Barbalang has 229 hp remaining)
#3: 57 hp (Barbalang has 172 hp remaining)
#4: 43 hp (Barbalang has 129 hp remaining)
With Excel, this was easy to calculate. But in play? (Isn't this too complicated for 4E, you think?)

"Summon Duplicate (minor, not while bloodied; at-will)"
(My emphasis)
"It can have no more than four duplicates at once"
The barbalang becomes bloodied at 204 hp. How does it ever manifest its fourth simultaneous duplicate?!

"Absorb Duplicate
The berbalang absorbs a duplicate adjacent to it and regains 50 hit points."
Okay, so it makes sense for the berbalang to reabsorb duplicates that have taken lots of damage, healing itself in the process.
Now, I haven't done the math, but my first thought was that if it could manifest that crucial fourth duplicate (which the text heavily suggests), it has a ready source of exactly 28 free hp.

Manifest a fourth duplicate, lose 43 hp. Absorb, gain 50 hp. Repeat until duplicate manifests with exactly 50 hp. Then begin combat.

(No, it really doesn't work... If it somehow heals those 204-172=32 hp needed to manifest a fourth time, that duplicate starts out with 51 hp, which is exactly the amount needed for reabsorbtion to work at a loss. At least here the designer did his homework



My final question is for those who have run this monster in actual play. It seems the Berbalang exposes itself to tremendous risk - it will quickly lower its hp to about half. Doesn't this equip the monster with a glass jaw?

Its reabsorption ability sounds good in theory, but as its attacks differ from those of its duplicates, it seems to be easy to tell them apart. A party that doesn't waste any attacks on duplicates will win the encounter fairly quickly, assuming the monster appears alone.

If the berbalang chooses to heal, it does nothing but reabsorb duplicates. This also removes opponents, so this strategy fails quickly.

It seems its best strategy is simply to fight on, hoping to have enough time to sacrifice all its duplicates before it dies. But removing an ally and risking 25 hp seems an awfully steep price to pay, even for the extra damage...

To me the berbalang is either an easy win (if you ignore its duplicates) or almost an unbeatable encounter (if you run it so duplicates and original can't be told apart).


Zapp

PS. Yes, I checked the errata. Nothing on the berbalang.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/249181-berbalang-forked-thread-best.html

 

[the Jester]

I haven't used one yet in 4e, but I'd prolly make it impossible to tell the original from the dupes.

I think it would play out in a very interesting way; I see the berbalang prolly popping off a duplicate or two and then healing with them, and then maybe popping off another dupe...

And of course they die at 0 hp, just like the berbalang itself would.

I don't know how this guy would play, but I've loved berbalangs since 1e.

 

[burntgerbil]

As a matter of fact I just ran one of these tonight, against a party of 6 5th level PC's. It was relatively short for a solo fight - The PC's won.

1) The hp's would have been much harder to keep track of had I not had a calculator on me.

2) for all of the "show" that the berbalang puts on, It's attacks are somewhat lacking.

3) the encounter lasted about an hour - a bit too quick for a solo 5 levels higher than the party.

4) I had ruled that they could tell the original from the duplicates.

5) The original berbalang had a vampiric dagger that he was using
( I had to house rule reasonable damage) that gained him enough HP to make more duplicates.

The party liked the role playing aspect of this encounter - although they agreed that for all the effort that was put into dividing and reabsorbing and exploding, the flanking bonuses from claw attacks were pathetic. I ruled halfway through the encounter, that if a berbalang was flanking with one of it's duplicates, that it get two attacks instead of the +1d8.

From a math standpoint, all I could reasonably manifest were 2 copies and 1 original, and even with high defenses, a party of 6 with a cleric wore them down quickly.

Also, due to the 3 vs 6 nature of the battle and the fact that they needed to flank to really do anything, the combat was inherently stale - a la 3.5 "stand around and smack him" combat. All in all, this was a very easy 2500 xp for the party - I had to downgrade the XP to reflect the ease of the encounter.

If it were up to me, I would make the change of the flanking extra attack I mentioned earlier, state that the original is distinct in some manner, give the original only regeneration 5 or 10 and give them an attack that did a little more to shake things up - pushing or pulling or dazing or stunning even. Perhaps allowing each duplicate to create a pair of minion clones as an encounter action would be cool also.

I would probably just create one entry for the original Berbalang and an entry for "berbalang clone" that were distinctive from the original but identical to each other. This would reflect the way that the original should be a solo controller and the duplicates should be strikers/soliders. There is a lot of great design space that went unused here.

 

[CapnZapp]

Anyone up for taking a shot at the specific rules-related questions I posted above?

1) Is a duplicate not killed/destroyed/taken out of action at zero hp?
2) Is force-moving the original away 11+ squares a legit way of winning/short-circuiting the battle?
3) Is it really true you need a lot of math running the spawning and "de-spawning" of berbalang duplicates?
4) How does a berbalang ever manifest its fourth simultaneous duplicate? (It appears as if doesn't have enough hp)
...and, most importantly,
5) are you to be able to discern between original or duplicates? If so, how? (Unless your reply is "automatic", what specific skill and what DC?)

Muchos gracias,
Zapp

 

[-Avalon-]

Well, a question came up at this last weekend's session, that none of us could find an answer to... now I am sure that there is an answer somewhere, but for the life of me, I cannot find it:

Berbalang Dupes Says:
"A duplicate has the same statistics as the berbalang except for its hit points. When the berbalang manifests a duplicate, the berbalang loses one-quarter of its current hit points and the duplicate appears with that quantity of hit points. The berbalang’s maximum number of hit points remains the same."

Now, a whole lot of stuff is on this guy, other than hit points... so what all is REALLY duplicated? Not HP... but all defenses of course, and initiative so it can roll its own... and I would guess it gets the +5 on saves due to being a solo... but what about the action points that also go with being a solo? Or the duplication power itself? once the original spawns 4 copies, can they then spawn 4 copies each until we have an army of minion berbalang copies? and do they each then get action points also? How far can this go, or do they just get the APs but not the duplicate power? This creature is one that could have used a whole lot more explanation...

 

[CapnZapp]

If we start with a perfect duplicate, the rules make us remove/change the following:
1) Position: "[manifests] in an unoccupied adjacent square."
2) Summon Duplicate: ", and duplicates cannot summon other duplicates."
3) Initiative: "When a duplicate appears, it makes an initiative check and joins the battle on that initiative count."
4) Damage type: "All damage a duplicate deals is treated as psychic damage."
5) Hit points: "A duplicate has the same statistics as the berbalang except for its hit points*. When the berbalang manifests a duplicate, the berbalang loses one-quarter of its current hit points and the duplicate appears with that quantity of hit points."
6) Existance: "Duplicates last until the berbalang reaches 0 hit points, absorbs them, or uses sacrifice. A duplicate must stay within 10 squares of the berbalang at all times or it disappears."
*) Or, presumably, these five other ...things.

As for other stats, I see no reason why duplicates wouldn't gain the berbalang's current number of action points, for instance. If your DM gave the berbalang a magic weapon, each duplicate would gain its bonuses and powers.

But, as noted, duplicates can't make more duplicates.

Now for my own questions...?

 

[burntgerbil]

Capn' - most of your question spring from the fact that it is a poorly thought out creature.

1) I would say yes, they Die. It does not specify that they do not die at 0 hp and last I heard, if it didn't say there's an exception, then there's no exception.

2) Force Moving - I would allow the copies to vanish only if the Original Berbalang voluntarily moves out of range. Note that even this was not intended if you read his escape strategy.

3) I did do a lot of math spawning and re-absorbing. Although my beer consumption while Dm'ing is probably just slightly above the average curve.

4) the 4th duplicate was never an issue in our encounter.

5) I allowed my party to automatically - by the way he screeched in combat and made his minions take the damage for him.


After thinking about it, here would be my fixes if I were to run it again. Spawn and Minons would cost no hp to spawn and they would have their own stat blocks. I would have two sub-levels of Berbalang. One would be berbalang spawn - each would have 108 HP. They would cost a standard action to create, recharge on 4-6 and he could have three of these active at any time. When one dies, the original loses 25 HP. Each spawn can create Berbalang Minions as move actions - up to 6 total on the board at one time - each time a minion dies, all spawns and original berbalang lose 10 HP.

This would be where I would begin to fix the lil critter.