Barrel of Alchemist's Fire

[erian_7]

While working through some adventure ideas, I've come across a need to categorize what exactly might happen if a barrel of alchemist fire were used as a weapon.

I'm thinking along the lines of a 50 gallon wooden barrel (so the barrel itself would weigh close to 50 lbs.) weighing in somewhere around 100 lbs. (so it has the equivalent of 50 flasks of alchemist's fire, valued at around 1000 gp). My gut reaction was something along the lines of this...

Thrown/Dropped:
3d6 bludgeoning plus 20d6 fire with a direct hit, all creatures within 20' take 5d6 points of splash damage.

Struck Violently:
All creatures within 20' take 5d6 points of splash damage.

Of course, any alchemist worth his philosopher's stone wouldn't make a whole barrel of this stuff--they'd mix each flask individually to avoid demolishing their workshop (and probably dying in the process).

Any thoughts or relevant sources?

ADMINS: Sorry, meant to stick this in the Rules section. Feel free to move it if you think it's more appropriate there.

 

[Mark]

Barrel of Alchemist's Fire

Good name for a band...

I'm thinking along the lines of a 50 gallon wooden barrel (so the barrel itself would weigh close to 50 lbs.) weighing in somewhere around 100 lbs. (so it has the equivalent of 50 flasks of alchemist's fire, valued at around 1000 gp). My gut reaction was something along the lines of this...

I'd round that off to 35 gallons. I'd round the weight of the liguid off at 8 pounds per gallon. An empty beer barrel weighs about 52kg or roughly 115 pounds. Rounding it all off at 400 pounds, for ease of play, might be a good idea.

http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictB.html#barrel

http://www.bierfassrollen.de/euroenglish.htm

3d6 bludgeoning plus 20d6 fire with a direct hit, all creatures within 20' take 5d6 points of splash damage.

Alchemist fire is sold by the pint, that's 8 pints in a gallon, so 280 pints in a barrel as per above. I think you might want to raise those numbers quite a bit.

All creatures within 20' take 5d6 points of splash damage.

These numbers should go up also, and you might want to also have the residual pool of oil spread well beyond the splashed area depending on the surface area available.

Just some thoughts and I'll leave it to the other crunchers to suggest some hard damage numbers.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Just because someone is hit by a larger amount of Alchemist's Fire doesn't mean they take the damage of every single pint of it. After all, Alchemist's Fire burns when exposed to the air. If you're covered in gallons and gallons of it (or, at least, one side of you is), not every single ounce is going to be exposed to air.

Think of it this way: Why would being hit with a barrel of Alchemist's fire do more damage than being immersed in lava?

Also, you have to think- nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is going to be able to use a 400-lb barrel of a semi-viscous liquid as a weapon. Not only would the range increments be ridiculously short (in other words, you'd never be able to throw it without catching yourself in the splash area), but you'd take insane penalties just for using the dang thing as a weapon.

Theoretically, it could be a very powerful weapon- just not at once. Besides, being able to do 20d6 points of damage to something (or more) <i>without a save</i>, on a <b>TOUCH ATTACK</b>, for a measly 1,000 gp, would break the game. Reality or no reality, there's no possible way to use that much Alchemist's Fire effectively.

 

[the Jester]

I'd add that all creatures in the splash area burn for 5d6, then 4d6, then 3d6, then 2d6, then 1d6 before finally burning out. Maybe allow a Ref save (DC 30?) to put the fire out.

"Stop, drop and roll! No, wait- get out of the puddle of flaming alchemists fire first, and then stop drop and roll!"

 

[erian_7]

I'd round that off to 35 gallons. I'd round the weight of the liguid off at 8 pounds per gallon. An empty beer barrel weighs about 52kg or roughly 115 pounds. Rounding it all off at 400 pounds, for ease of play, might be a good idea.

Forgot the weight of the AF container in the PHB, and the pint vs. gallon piece... Good call.

Alchemist fire is sold by the pint, that's 8 pints in a gallon, so 280 pints in a barrel as per above. I think you might want to raise those numbers quite a bit.

At first I was thinking along the same lines, just going with 1d6 damage for each flask, but then I got to thinking about the energy wasted in destroying the container, additional liquid going out in the splash, etc. There will be some lost damage potential basically from "using this in a manner not as directed in the instructions." A 25d6 cap on the fire damage seems the upper limit for me. The bludgeoning damage would need to go up, however. At 400 lbs. that puts it at 5d6.

These numbers should go up also, and you might want to also have the residual pool of oil spread well beyond the splashed area depending on the surface area available.

For the splash damage, AF normally does only about 15% of its damage potential as splash damage. I'm thinking the splash would stay in the 15-25% range. Interesting idea on the residual pool. Any physics folks out there that can say how much floor space 35 gallons would cover (assuming a level floor)? Perhaps the splash damage should be shorter range in that case, in a 10' burst perhaps.

 

[Anax]

Mmm. Makes me think of greek fire.

The appropriate way to use a barrel of alchemist's fire would be via catapult or trebuchet--launch it into the enemy fortification. Try to get the barrel to break up in the air so you hit a nice large area.

 

[Mark]

Also, you have to think- nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is going to be able to use a 400-lb barrel of a semi-viscous liquid as a weapon.

Trebuchet throwing them, Colossal Flying Creatures dropping them, Conjuring a barrel over a target area, Titans, Dropping them from flying aircraft of various types, etc.?

 

[UltimaGabe]

I'd add that all creatures in the splash area burn for 5d6, then 4d6, then 3d6, then 2d6, then 1d6 before finally burning out. Maybe allow a Ref save (DC 30?) to put the fire out.

"Stop, drop and roll! No, wait- get out of the puddle of flaming alchemists fire first, and then stop drop and roll!"

Why don't we just throw in a rule that makes the pieces of the barrel count as +5 Vorpal weapons in there somewhere, and see if we can make it even more broken?

So you're saying you want to make it so that for 1,000 gp, you can get an item that's almost as powerful as a Meteor Swarm spell, with a Reflex save that a high-level Rogue would have trouble with? And your logic is.... where, exactly?

There are some times that realism, such as more deadly mundane items, is important. There are other times, such as this, where realism is out the window. This item could burn through an Adamantine wall if you got a direct hit. And you think it's going to be balanced somehow? What are you thinking?

 

[Mark]

At first I was thinking along the same lines, just going with 1d6 damage for each flask...

UltimaGabe makes a good point about the amount of liquid that could actually come in contact with a creature based on the creature's surface area. You might want to factor that in and make different caps for different size creatures.

 

[erian_7]

Just because someone is hit by a larger amount of Alchemist's Fire doesn't mean they take the damage of every single pint of it. After all, Alchemist's Fire burns when exposed to the air. If you're covered in gallons and gallons of it (or, at least, one side of you is), not every single ounce is going to be exposed to air.

Think of it this way: Why would being hit with a barrel of Alchemist's fire do more damage than being immersed in lava?

Agreed (thus my limit on the fire damage stated below)

Also, you have to think- nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is going to be able to use a 400-lb barrel of a semi-viscous liquid as a weapon. Not only would the range increments be ridiculously short (in other words, you'd never be able to throw it without catching yourself in the splash area), but you'd take insane penalties just for using the dang thing as a weapon.

The situation won't have it as a weapon so much as an area obstacle (or benefit, depending on what the players do with it). I can see some situations where it could be used as a weapon. A hill giant Hulking Hurler, for instance, could through the thing fairly easily, albeit with a range increment of 10-20 (with Far Shot) and a -2 on the attack. But I don't have (or generally allow) giant PCs, so that's not going to happen in my game, nor could PCs buy AF in this quantity.

Theoretically, it could be a very powerful weapon- just not at once. Besides, being able to do 20d6 points of damage to something (or more) <i>without a save</i>, on a <b>TOUCH ATTACK</b>, for a measly 1,000 gp, would break the game. Reality or no reality, there's no possible way to use that much Alchemist's Fire effectively.

IMC, 1000 gp is a LOT of money to all but the elite, but I know I control free cash flow a little tighter than many...