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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 8045978" data-attributes="member: 2629"><p>Unnecessary.</p><p></p><p>The d6 damage is low, so that die size usually accompanies a significant secondary ability on a cantrip.</p><p></p><p>Here, if they fail the first saving throw (for the cantrip), they then get a d4 penalty on the next save they make. You can use the ready action to try to make this as meaningful as possible, but it still impacts 12.5% of saving throws (or less). What this means is that you're giving up a good attack on an alpha strike round to possibly set up a failed save on a subsequent turn (for non-sorcerers at least - sorcerers can unleash this using sorcery points and quicken spell). Most of the time, I'd rather be casting two real spells against a meaningful enemy than trying to set them up with a cantrip that only has an impact on 1 of 8 saves.</p><p></p><p>So let's think about this in comparison to toll the dead, which usually deals d12 damage. You're giving up 3 points of damage, on average, for each damage die you get to roll for the cantrip in order to get a penalty to saves that will impact the success of 1 in 8 saving throws. You have to cast this cantrip an average of 8 times to get the impact (save becomes a fail) an average of once.</p><p></p><p>At levels one to four, you're giving up about 24 points of damage to turn one of your opponent's made saving throws into a fail. For pure damage spells, that is clearly a losing proposition. 24 points of damage is more than you get from the difference between a made and failed save on a shatter. For non-damage spells, you're usually negating an enemy action for one round with a failed save - so you're giving up 24 damage to take one opponent out of action for 1 round. </p><p></p><p>At levels 5 to 10, you're giving up an average of 48 points of damage. Your spell effects are more substantial for those damage spells of levels 3 to 5, but still not dealing the 96 you'd need them to deal in order for a failed save to really make a damage spell worthwhile on the back end of this spell. You're going to want to hold monster, hypnotic patterns or something else similar to really get your value, and you're saying that the 48 damage you'd give up against those types of foes is less valueable than that one failed save.</p><p></p><p>Levels 11 to 16 require you to give up 72 damage to get that failed save. At this point, that lost damage is a pretty big number. The non-damage spells have massive effects that can take one opponent out, but the uncertainty of whether it will actually have an impact making this unreliable and random is a detriment - and really - the save or * spells higher level than hold monster are not really that more impactful unless the monster is a really nasty solo type beast.</p><p></p><p>Levels 17 to 20 mean you're giving up 96 damage for every extra failed save. That is a lot of damage to give up, this is actually the level range where I'd be most interested in it given the high level potent magics - but if you're good at figuring out enemy saves, many enemies are already failing 80 to 95% of their saves against your spells.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 8045978, member: 2629"] Unnecessary. The d6 damage is low, so that die size usually accompanies a significant secondary ability on a cantrip. Here, if they fail the first saving throw (for the cantrip), they then get a d4 penalty on the next save they make. You can use the ready action to try to make this as meaningful as possible, but it still impacts 12.5% of saving throws (or less). What this means is that you're giving up a good attack on an alpha strike round to possibly set up a failed save on a subsequent turn (for non-sorcerers at least - sorcerers can unleash this using sorcery points and quicken spell). Most of the time, I'd rather be casting two real spells against a meaningful enemy than trying to set them up with a cantrip that only has an impact on 1 of 8 saves. So let's think about this in comparison to toll the dead, which usually deals d12 damage. You're giving up 3 points of damage, on average, for each damage die you get to roll for the cantrip in order to get a penalty to saves that will impact the success of 1 in 8 saving throws. You have to cast this cantrip an average of 8 times to get the impact (save becomes a fail) an average of once. At levels one to four, you're giving up about 24 points of damage to turn one of your opponent's made saving throws into a fail. For pure damage spells, that is clearly a losing proposition. 24 points of damage is more than you get from the difference between a made and failed save on a shatter. For non-damage spells, you're usually negating an enemy action for one round with a failed save - so you're giving up 24 damage to take one opponent out of action for 1 round. At levels 5 to 10, you're giving up an average of 48 points of damage. Your spell effects are more substantial for those damage spells of levels 3 to 5, but still not dealing the 96 you'd need them to deal in order for a failed save to really make a damage spell worthwhile on the back end of this spell. You're going to want to hold monster, hypnotic patterns or something else similar to really get your value, and you're saying that the 48 damage you'd give up against those types of foes is less valueable than that one failed save. Levels 11 to 16 require you to give up 72 damage to get that failed save. At this point, that lost damage is a pretty big number. The non-damage spells have massive effects that can take one opponent out, but the uncertainty of whether it will actually have an impact making this unreliable and random is a detriment - and really - the save or * spells higher level than hold monster are not really that more impactful unless the monster is a really nasty solo type beast. Levels 17 to 20 mean you're giving up 96 damage for every extra failed save. That is a lot of damage to give up, this is actually the level range where I'd be most interested in it given the high level potent magics - but if you're good at figuring out enemy saves, many enemies are already failing 80 to 95% of their saves against your spells. [/QUOTE]
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