Are spell DC's too low?

[Coredump]

I am not a whining player, I am a DM watching frustrated mages.

With a DC of only 10+lvl+modifier the DC's for spells are really low. We play fairly low scores, so most of the Mages have +2 in their casting stat, so a first level spell is just DC 13. Thus the monsters keep making their saves. Now, there are no-save alternatives, but they have pretty much stopped casting 'save' spells because of how infrequent they work.

Am I missing something?

 

[Crothian]

If the PCs have low scores do you also lower the scores of the mopnsters then?

I haven't seen the DCs be too low. But the trick seems to be to cast the will save spells at the people with the bad will saves, fort spells and people with bad fort saves, etc.

 

[Dalprin]

I have felt that way too, but from a DM's standpoint. Fights that on paper should have been tough were almost walk throughs because the fireballs, cone of colds, etc... did minimal damage. It seemed like every spell thrown at the party was saved against.

9 points from a saved from fireball pales in comparison to Buffy the Barbarian doing 1d12+4/1d12+4 a round without even raising a sweat.

I'd like to hear if anyone else has been tempted to up the DC to 15 + spell level + modifier.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

But the trick seems to be to cast the will save spells at the people with the bad will saves, fort spells and people with bad fort saves, etc.

Seconded; also this where the class knowledge skills kick in real handy for the wizards.

 

[MerricB]

I have felt that way too, but from a DM's standpoint. Fights that on paper should have been tough were almost walk throughs because the fireballs, cone of colds, etc... did minimal damage. It seemed like every spell thrown at the party was saved against.

9 points from a saved from fireball pales in comparison to Buffy the Barbarian doing 1d12+4/1d12+4 a round without even raising a sweat.

9 points from a saved-from fireball against 4 opponents is 36 damage, compared to buffy's average of 21 damage.

Please keep that in mind.

DCs are not too low. Spell Focus is a great feat for that reason. By the time you reach level 6 or 7, you should also have access to a Headband of Intellect +2 (or similar), which also boosts it, and then stat boosts from levels.

A 15 Int wizard at 1st level with Spell Focus (enchantment) casting sleep has a DC of 14. Against four orcs (-2 Will), that's a 75% chance of each one failing their saves.

That same wizard at 5th level, now with Spell Focus (evocation) casting fireball, now has a Int of 16, and a DC of 17. Against four Sahuagin (CR 2, EL 6, Ref +4), they each need 13s to save (or a 60% chance of failure). Failure is 17 damage, success is 8 damage - we can assume 50 damage.

By 8th level, greater spell focus and a +2 Headband, (Int 19) the DC for fireball has reached 19. Let's use a couple of CR 6 Ettins as targets (Ref +2). Oh dear...

(The save against level 4 spells is now 20).

However, fireball doesn't work well against single opponents, or speedy opponents. That's why there are so many spells. The trick is to know which ones to prepare.

Cheers!

 

[S'mon]

I rarely see NPCs save against PC spells; smart players work to maximise the DCs and target the foe's poor saves, I rarely see the orcs save against Sleep (Will) or Fireball (Ref) attacks. PCs often save though because NPC casters tend to have lower spell DCs.

 

[Li Shenron]

If in your game the spell DC is too low, use the old versions of SF/GSF and see if it helps.

 

[MonkeyDragon]

I too often feel some frustration as a player when opponents have to roll ones or twos to fail my saves. What's even more frustrating than that flame strike finally getting though, but once the high level slots are gone, what do you do with the rest? That flaming sphere with the painfully low save isn't going to do a lot of good.

 

[Numion]

The problem in our group is that a dedicated powergamer always finds ways to get ridiculously high spell DCs. Not fun for the DM, depending on how long making that NPC took that just got Fingered to Death.

I rarely see NPCs save against PC spells; smart players work to maximise the DCs and target the foe's poor saves, I rarely see the orcs save against Sleep (Will) or Fireball (Ref) attacks. PCs often save though because NPC casters tend to have lower spell DCs.

Funny that, we have a player who has a knack for always targeting the spells wrong. He uses Slay Living on giants (fort save), fireballs on rogues (high ref) and probably would try to charm clerics ..

 

[Ironclad]

All depends if you are on the receiving end of the spell or not.