Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow ability

[DrSpunj]

Since I'm considering playing an Arcane Archer as my next PC, I wanted to get an idea about how useful the Imbue Arrow ability really was. Here's the ability:

Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Since I plan on taking only a handful of Wizard levels I looked through the 3.5 PHB and wrote down all 0 through 3rd level Wiz/Sor spells that had an Area descriptor or an Effect descriptor that delineated an Area. Here's that list [Spell (Range) Area/Effect]:

0-level spells

• Detect Magic (60') cone
• Detect Poison (Close) 5' cube
• Prestidigitation (10') 1' cube

1st-level spells

• Burning Hands (15') cone
• Color Spray (15') cone
• Dancing Lights (Medium) 10' rad
• Detect Secret Doors (60') cone
• Detect Thoughts (60') cone
• Detect Undead (60') cone
• Grease (Close) 10' square
• Hypnotism (Close) 15' rad
• Obscuring Mist (Personal) 20' rad
• Silent Image (Long) 4 10' cubes + 1 10' cube per level
• Sleep (Medium) 10' rad

2nd-level spells

• Flaming Sphere (Medium) 5' diameter sphere
• Fog Cloud (Medium) 20' rad
• Glitterdust (Medium) 10' rad
• Hypnotic Pattern (Medium) 10' rad
• Locate Object (Long) Long rad
• Minor Image (Long) 4 10' cubes + 1 10' cube per level
• Shatter (Close) 5' rad
• Web (Medium) 20' rad
• Whispering Wind (1 mile/level) 10' rad

3rd-level spells

• Dispel Magic (Medium) 20' rad
• Fireball (Long) 20' rad
• Gust of Wind (60') line
• Invisibility Sphere (Personal) 10' rad
• Leomund's Tiny Hut (Personal) 20' rad
• Lightning Bolt (120') line
• Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Touch) 10' rad
• Sleet Storm (Long) cylinder
• Stinking Cloud (Medium) 20' rad
• Summon Swarm (Close) 10' square
• Wind Wall (Medium) wall

Please let me know if I've missed any other spells.

Now then, since the earliest you can qualify for Arcane Archer is 7th level the earliest anyone could get Imbue Arrow is at 9th level, and then you'd only have access to 0 & 1st level spells. To get 2nd level spells you'd have to put off your first level of Arcane Archer until 9th level and wouldn't get Imbue Arrow until 10th.

But assuming you take the fast track, Medium range for a 9th level caster is 190'. Since a composite longbow has a range increment of 110' you're well into your second increment with a -2 penalty using the Imbue Arrow ability to gain any additional range for your spell. That doesn't seem overly worthwhile to me personally. YMMV but it's my post so I'm going to ignore all spells of Medium range or longer on the above lists. That leaves us with these spells IMO that actually gain any real benefit from the ability:

0-level spells

• Detect Magic (60') cone
• Detect Poison (Close) 5' cube
• Prestidigitation (10') 1' cube

1st-level spells

• Burning Hands (15') cone
• Color Spray (15') cone
• Detect Secret Doors (60') cone
• Detect Thoughts (60') cone
• Detect Undead (60') cone
• Grease (Close) 10' square
• Hypnotism (Close) 15' rad
• Obscuring Mist (Personal) 20' rad

2nd-level spells

• Shatter (Close) 5' rad

3rd-level spells

• Gust of Wind (60') line
• Invisibility Sphere (Personal) 10' rad
• Leomund's Tiny Hut (Personal) 20' rad
• Lightning Bolt (120') 120' line
• Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Touch) 10' rad
• Summon Swarm (Close) 10' square

Now, the wording of the ability allows some pretty funky effects with cones. That is, if you shoot your arrow/spell out to 200', it seems to me your spell's Area of effect becomes a cone still originating at the caster, but now 200' long & 200' wide at its base. I think that's a bit unbalanced when talking about Burning Hands & perhaps Color Spray, but is of no real consequence with the Detect spells. If you instead interpret the ability to mean the standard cone originates from the arrow itself, then you have to make a judgement call about which direction the cone is oriented in (I'd assume away from the caster) and whether the effect is at all modified by actually shooting the arrow into an enemy or some other object.

Lightning Bolt also poses an interesting puzzle. Does the arrow extend the length of the Lightning Bolt such that it starts at the caster and extends to the arrow several hundred feet away? Or does the 120' line defined in the Area entry mean that it originates from the arrow and goes 120'? (Again, I'd assume with the latter its direction would be away from the caster.)

Does anyone have any official word on any of these questions? Or thoughts on the ability in general? How would you DM the cone & Lightning Bolt interpretations if one of your players brought this to your attention?

On a separate note, with Damage Reduction being just "magic" and not +1, +2, etc. as it was in 3.0, and with magical enhancement to arrows and bows no longer stacking, does anyone feel the Arcane Archer is a bit...weaker now? Is it worth playing vs just sticking with base classes? I'm planning on taking mostly Ranger levels, with a level or 3 of Wizard if the spells are worth it for Imbue Arrow (but looking at the above list for 2nd level spells, ie. Shatter, I probably won't take more than 1 level of Wizard).

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[gfunk]

If you instead interpret the ability to mean the standard cone originates from the arrow itself, then you have to make a judgement call about which direction the cone is oriented in (I'd assume away from the caster) and whether the effect is at all modified by actually shooting the arrow into an enemy or some other object.
Lightning Bolt also poses an interesting puzzle. Does the arrow extend the length of the Lightning Bolt such that it starts at the caster and extends to the arrow several hundred feet away? Or does the 120' line defined in the Area entry mean that it originates from the arrow and goes 120'? (Again, I'd assume with the latter its direction would be away from the caster.)

I think your interpretation for both is correct. The spell would originate from the arrow and away from the caster.

On a separate note, with Damage Reduction being just "magic" and not +1, +2, etc. as it was in 3.0, and with magical enhancement to arrows and bows no longer stacking, does anyone feel the Arcane Archer is a bit...weaker now? Is it worth playing vs just sticking with base classes? I'm planning on taking mostly Ranger levels, with a level or 3 of Wizard if the spells are worth it for Imbue Arrow (but looking at the above list for 2nd level spells, ie. Shatter, I probably won't take more than 1 level of Wizard).

Again, I believe you are correct. Arcane Archers just aren't as worthwile as 3.0. However, you seem to have taken a shine to the Imbue Arrow ability, so allow me to humbly suggest the following build.

Wizard 8/Fighter 2/Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight 8

BAB +16
Caster Level = 15

mmmmmm . . . imbue arrows with Horrid Wilting.

 

[RigaMortus]

It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow.

So, since Sleep is now a full-round action to cast, does this mean you can fire off a Sleep spell with an Imbued Arrow with only a Standard Action?

If you have a spell Quickened, would this help you in anyway when firing off that Quickened spell in an Imbued Arrow?

 

[Rackhir]

Basically, the question you need to ask is do you want to be a figher with some magic ability or a Mage with some fighting ability. An AA is kind of a poor compromise, to make many of the abilities useful you need caster levels, but those levels have to come out of either your AA levels or your fighter levels. So basically you can either be good at fighting or good at casting spells, with a much weaker secondary of the other.

Note : The Arcane Archers can potentially become quite deadly at epic levels, if for no other reason than their arrow bonuses continue to increase. In the absence of an Epic GMW, that could mean that the AA is sometimes the only party member who can hit creatures with Epic DR. Though this may change with 3.5 as I've not seen anything on the Epic AA under 3.5.

The ability to imbue spells is essentially useless with all but a handful of spells (Glitterdust being the only one that comes to mind). Since as you've noticed any good spells have sufficient range that you don't need to imbue them.

Re: The Cone Etc spells

From the SRD : Imbue Arrow: At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains this spell-like ability, allowing her to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered upon where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

So at least according to the SRD the spell effect is centered on the location where the arrow lands. So I would judge that if you have imbued Cone of cold, that the spell would start at the point where the arrow lands and operates normally from there.

Basically, if you want to run a good archer char, then I would go some combination of Order of the Bow Initiate and/or Deep Woods Sniper. There are those who advocate for a Cleric archer, but I'm unsure of how well they work under 3.5 with the cuts in the buff spell durations.

 

[DrSpunj]

That "centered" I didn't really focus on much before, but I think you're right Rackhir, it does lead me to believe the origin is at the arrow (like gfunk was saying).

Still, would you rule any differently if that Cone of Cold fired with Imbue Arrow actually sinks into an Ogre (for example) instead of just landing point down in the mud? As a DM would you do anything special? Does the Ogre take extra damage or have a tougher save? Is the spell modified in any way for those in the rest of the cone? If the arrow damage is enough to kill him it'd be extremely cinematic to say the Cone of Cold explodes out of his back, engulfing all behind him. However, if he doesn't die from the arrow damage, what then?

And RigaMortus: I'd never considered the fact that the casting of some spells (like Sleep) may actually be sped up by using Imbue Arrow. I don't think as a DM I'd allow that, but I don't think there's anything in the rules that backs me up (not that there needs to be, of course, I just like consistancy within the rules set whenever I can find it).

Finally, about Archer builds in general, I thank you all for the ideas, and I've read a lot of threads here in EN Rules on the topic, but I'm currently very interested in playing an Arcane Archer-like concept. I'm currently working with my DM and revamping the Prestige Class a bit, but I'm trying to decide whether to keep the Imbue Arrow ability as is, in a changed form, or dumping it all together.

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[Rackhir]

RE: Arrow and target - Strictly according to the rules, no you wouldn't get any "Bonuses", but it is probably much easier to shoot an arrow through cover/arrow slit than for a mage to try it on it's own. Personally I think some sort of bonus would be in order, but that's up to your DM. In addition to the benefits you mentioned, some have suggested there should be no save, but that's something I would do some experimentation with. Try out the different options in combat and see what seems most reasonable in your campaign.

Concieveably the ogre in your example could provide cover, but that would seem to be something a "Screw the Players" DM would do. I don't believe that cone effects are blocked for targets behind another within the cone.

Personally, unless there was substantially more flexibility/usefulness to the ability, I would just swap it out for something else.

 

[FrankTrollman]

No. The real question is why you wouldn't just be a Cleric Archer. Those guys kick the pants off of "Arcane Archers" to this day.

Better spellcasting, that they can do in armor, coupled with more magical arrows from GMW, coupled with more all-around archery bonuses.

The fact is that Wizard spells are not several levels better than Cleric spells. Mostly, they are just a little better - and often the same. Going straight Cleric you can cast spells in armor and shoot arrows without ever giving up a spellcaster level - and that's fundamentally superior to anything the Arcane Archer can ever do.

If AAs gave out spellcaster levels it would be worth considering - but right now the Cleric can simply do everything the Arcane Archer can do better while also having additional abilities on top.

It's not a contest, I don't know how anyone could let such a provably mathematically inferior class through a revision - it's like they didn't even read it.

I really like the flavor of the Arcane Archer - but you can be a Cleric Archer with exactly the same schtick and be superior in all ways.

-Frank

 

[Pax]

Consider a Theurge/Arcane Archer. If you're looking pre-=epic only, you don't need more than, what, 5 levels of AA?

Wizard(3)/Cleric(3)/Theurge(7)/Fighter(2)/AA(5)

10th level caster on both fronts, +3 arrows, Imbue, and up to 5th level Wizard and Cleric spells.

At epic levels, you can go with:

ECL 25:
Wizard(3)/Cleric(3)/Theurge(10)/Fighter(4)/AA(5)
... gain specialisation; caster level goes to 13 for both types, giving access to 7th level spells

ECL 30:
Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Theurge(10)/Fighter(4)/AA(6)
... up to caster level 15, and 8th level spells, for each class. Plus whatever it is AA's get at 6th level.

ECL 35:
Wizard(7)/Cleric(7)/Theurge(10)/Fighter(4)/AA(7)
... now you've got 9th level Wizard and Cleric spells, and +4 arrows for free.

ECL 40:
Wizard(7)/Cleric(7)/Theurge(10)/Fighter(4)/AA(10)/[something epic](1)
... just to be complete.

 

[Li Shenron]

I wonder if there has never been any FAQ or SA about the Imbue Arrow ability, because I had this kind of doubts since 3.0 anyway. Without any official help, I don't know how to play it.

I don't think cones and lines should be suitable for this ability, since they are "originated at the caster" rather than "centered at the caster", so how would for example a line be "centered when the arrow lands"? Should it be so that the arrow is in the centre of the line? Both kinds of areas are very directional and to adjudicate them is not obvious as it would be for a burst or emanation or cylinder effect.

On the other hand, touch spells would have made very good sense to be usable with Imbue Arrow, but the description clearly rule them out (they are not area spells). Probably they ruled them out on purpose being "scared" that it would lead to some cheesy tactics? Don't know, but given the high pre-requisites to Arcane Archers (which basically limits a lot your spellcaster's levels, that is how many spells you can apply to this feature), I think Imbue Arrow is worth very very little. You can probably find a few spells which are indeed easily exploitable and you'll often imbue them whenever you can, but it's definitely not the reason why to take this PrCl at the moment.

 

[DrSpunj]

Frank & Pax: While I appreciate your comments, this thread is not entitled "What's the most powerful Archer build?". I started this thread because the Imbue Arrow ability didn't seem to be worth much and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing and/or misinterpreting something.

However, I would be grateful to both of you, and anyone else, that wanted to help me work on a more balanced Arcane Archer Prestige Class in this thread in the House Rules forum.

Thanks.

Li Shenron: I agree that WotC hasn't officially said much on the matter, and that cones & lines should probably originate from the arrow. I don't think it's a real stretch to limit the direction to that of the arrow's flight, directly away from the caster/archer. The grenade rules would be of particular use here using this scheme as the line of effect for a Lightning Bolt originating from your arrow could be significantly different if you missed the square and/or target you were aiming at with the arrow.